Topic: Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

Offline swindle

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Quote from: Bell;907309
Can you at explain what you mean by this.
And what is changing exactly?

How deep does the rabbit hole go?

How deep into human prediction do you want to go?

Reply #6500 Posted: March 19, 2009, 10:08:41 pm
If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes should fall like a house of cards. Checkmate.

Offline Dante

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Quote from: huey31415;907305
I would say Sir Isaac Newton is the greatest of all time

Yeah, possibly. He also discovered the properties of light and done some pretty epic work in the study of optics (how our eyes work, how we perceive colors ect.)

I hold people like Newton, Kepler, Galileo, Copernicus, Descartes and all those great classical scientific geniuses in the same regard really. I wanted to share some of Einstein's writings though because he has more in the way of philosophy and because he's a more modern scientist.

Newton was a really eccentric guy as well though - as nicely indicated by that particular quote you just posted, which is evidence of his motivation to discover hidden messages he thought might be encoded in the Bible. I think he was looking for things that weren't there (so no, we shouldn't take his prediction of the end of the world very seriously at all :D )

Quote from: ™swindLe..;907313
How deep does the rabbit hole go?

How deep into human prediction do you want to go?

I must've missed this conversation - what the heck are you guys on about? Predicting human behavior...?

Reply #6501 Posted: March 19, 2009, 10:23:13 pm

Offline Bell

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Quote from: ™swindLe..;907313
How deep does the rabbit hole go?

How deep into human prediction do you want to go?


Just the surface will do.
Name one way in-which human nature has changed in say the last 100 years

Reply #6502 Posted: March 19, 2009, 10:27:15 pm

Offline Zig

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Quote from: ™swindLe..;907292

Things are changing, and im pretty sure no one is going to be able to predict jack shit.

Then you just validated my point...Which was, in case you didn't catch it, that based on study of human behavior we can continue to predict human behavior, based on the reasonable assumption that humans will continue in much the same habits as they were when we studied them.

If however, as you claim, humans are changing, then of course nobody is going to be able to predict them, because there will not be anything to base it on...

Reply #6503 Posted: March 19, 2009, 10:28:11 pm

Offline swindle

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Quote from: St!g;907332
If however, as you claim, humans are changing, then of course nobody is going to be able to predict them, because there will not be anything to base it on...
Of course we are changing. You know this, you have your whole life. Education and religion are alike based on the assumption that it is possible to change human nature. In fact, it requires very little investigation to show that the one thing we can say with certainty about any living thing is that it cannot keep from changing. Without change there can be no life.

Quote from: Bell;907331
Just the surface will do.
Hit me up when you see it...

What determines/constrains human nature?

To what extent is human nature malleable?

How does it vary between people and populations?

Reply #6504 Posted: March 19, 2009, 10:36:13 pm
If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes should fall like a house of cards. Checkmate.

Offline swindle

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Quote from: Bell;907331
Just the surface will do.

Hit me up when you see it...

What determines/constrains human nature?

To what extent is human nature malleable?

How does it vary between people and populations?

Reply #6505 Posted: March 19, 2009, 10:38:19 pm
If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes should fall like a house of cards. Checkmate.

Offline Bell

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Quote from: ™swindLe..;907342

Hit me up when you see it...

What determines/constrains human nature?

To what extent is human nature malleable?

How does it vary between people and populations?


Millions of years of evolution.
Its not really, put in the right situation we revert back to basics.
Theres a bit of a difference between Female and Male.

Reply #6506 Posted: March 19, 2009, 10:50:27 pm

Offline huey31415

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Quote from: Dante;907322
(so no, we shouldn't take (Isaac Newton's) prediction of the end of the world very seriously at all :D )

Read it again. He said that the world would not end before 2060. That doesn't mean it will end in 2060; it means that it will end some day after 2060. He's well on his way to being right, considering he made that prediction hundreds of years ago and there are only 51 left.

Reply #6507 Posted: March 19, 2009, 10:52:27 pm

Offline Bell

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Reply #6508 Posted: March 19, 2009, 10:54:07 pm

Offline swindle

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Quote from: Bell;907360
Millions of years of evolution.
And evolution is change...

Quote from: Bell;907360
Its not really, put in the right situation we revert back to basics.
Put in the right situation, set of circumstances, its all the same...

Predicting human survival skills/instincts on a basic/primal level is not predicting human nature.  

Quote from: Bell;907360
Theres a bit of a difference between Female and Male.
Yes...

Reply #6509 Posted: March 19, 2009, 11:03:00 pm
If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes should fall like a house of cards. Checkmate.

Offline Chilli

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Quote from: Bell;907360

Its not really, put in the right situation we revert back to basics.
"In the right situation"..whats the point!? Imo we'd never revert back to basics there'd always be the evolutionarily change there somewhere, that is nature and the way things are done. What you think would be basic's wouldn't be a permanent thing.
Evolution is always there, always moving.

Reply #6510 Posted: March 19, 2009, 11:08:34 pm
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Offline swindle

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Quote from: Chillipepper;907379
"In the right situation"..whats the point!? Imo we'd never revert back to basics there'd always be the evolutionarily change there somewhere, that is nature and the way things are done. What you think would be basic's wouldn't be a permanent thing.
Evolution is always there, always moving.

^ yeah

This whole 'we can predict human nature' in the right "circumstances" or "situation" feels like such an empty argument towards this so called predictability of it. You create a situation by your own means and you would have a fair idea of being able to predict the outcome.

Your not in a situation you created. No one is. Nothing can be predicted in a ever changing ever evolving world that no one has any real control over.

Reply #6511 Posted: March 19, 2009, 11:15:09 pm
If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes should fall like a house of cards. Checkmate.

Offline Bell

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Quote from: ™swindLe..;907373
Predicting human survival skills/instincts on a basic/primal level is not predicting human nature.  

I bet in 1000 years sex will still sell.
Young males will have a tenency towards war stories/toys/films/games/holodecks
Females will still buy things to make themselves look good.
Men will still buy things to show off thier status.

Quote from: ™swindLe..;907373
Things are changing, and im pretty sure no one is going to be able to predict jack shit.

I just predicted 4 things. Do you disagree with them?

Reply #6512 Posted: March 19, 2009, 11:16:32 pm

Offline Chilli

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Quote from: Bell;907394
I bet in 1000 years sex will still sell.
Young males will have a tenency towards war stories/toys/films/games/holodecks
Females will still buy things to make themselves look good.
Men will still buy things to show off thier status.



I just predicted 4 things. Do you disagree with them?
So what!?

That's not 'evolution' as a whole and therefore you're inaccurate in stating that.

I bet in 100,000 years our heads will be twice the size, whats the point in going through silly things like this? Its pointless Bell.
The fact remains, evolution never stops, some things will take longer than others to change/die out/re-develop, whatever, but it will happen. What we should be concerned with is how well we as a race will embrace and develop those changes over time.

Reply #6513 Posted: March 19, 2009, 11:35:12 pm
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Offline Bell

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Oh of course evolution will change things.
Maybe I got the wrong end of the stick but I got the idea swindLe was suggesting we can't predict human nature.
And that human nature is changing at a rapid rate.

Quote
To some, perhaps a past extent, you are correct. But take a long hard look at the world now...

Things are changing, and im pretty sure no one is going to be able to predict jack shit.


I don't think human nature has changed much in 1000's of years because evolution takes a damn long time and I think the rate of change will be easily slow enough for people to always get a decent picture of human nature.

Reply #6514 Posted: March 19, 2009, 11:44:39 pm

Offline swindle

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Quote from: Bell;907394
I bet in 1000 years sex will still sell.
Young males will have a tenency towards war stories/toys/films/games/holodecks
Females will still buy things to make themselves look good.
Men will still buy things to show off thier status.



I just predicted 4 things. Do you disagree with them?
Not at all. Why would i assume those things will stop being human nature? Just becasue it changes does not mean we will stop doing other things.

Quote
Young males will have a tenency towards war stories/toys/films/games/holodecks
And lol dude.

Your talking about human nature on a primal level and how it can be predicted, and now saying that we will always like war stories and films...

That stuff is a by product of human nature. Not what it is. Maybe it will change, maybe it wont. Give it another 500 or so years. If our nature dictates we like it after 500 years, then yes. It will remain part of it.

No offence, but it feels like you have some kind of boiled down insight on human nature.

The idea of it and how it changes is evolutionary. Were not talking 20 years here. I know your not going to sit here and tell me that in hundreds of years most things will be the same as they are now and the nature of us is going to be the same.

The next hundred years will be a massive turning point. Its almost like make or break. Everything we do, everything in our nature will have to change and evolve in order to survive, or we will die. Nothing remains constant forever.

It is impossible and naive to think we are able to predict our nature at all, let alone in the next 10, 1000, 10,000 or millions years.

Reply #6515 Posted: March 20, 2009, 12:21:51 am
If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes should fall like a house of cards. Checkmate.

Offline Zig

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Quote from: ™swindLe..;907342
Of course we are changing. You know this, you have your whole life. Education and religion are alike based on the assumption that it is possible to change human nature. In fact, it requires very little investigation to show that the one thing we can say with certainty about any living thing is that it cannot keep from changing. Without change there can be no life.

Quote from: ™swindLe..;907342

Things are changing, and im pretty sure no one is going to be able to predict jack shit.


There's a rather large difference between changing through education, which is expected and predictable to a large extent (as I said previously) and the type of change you imply in the above quote.

In 100 years time, Human may have changed somewhat...but it will have happened slow enough to be able to adapt our behavioral models and theories with it. And I would think it fairly likely that education and the like will be even more successful in the the future due in part to the advancement of psychology.

Of course Education will only improve if Governments make the right calls...And NCEA has shown that they are highly capable of failing at that task....

Whereas marketing and advertising will continue to be more and more effective, because they are purely concerned with predicting behavior correctly in order to make money, they don't have to worry about what consequence their choices will make on their re-election (turns out capitalism works after all...lol)

Reply #6516 Posted: March 20, 2009, 12:35:14 am

Offline Bell

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Quote from: swindLe..
Things are changing, and im pretty sure no one is going to be able to predict jack shit.

Quote from: Bell
I just predicted 4 things. Do you disagree with them?

Quote from: ™swindLe..;907440
Not at all. Why would i assume those things will stop being human nature? Just becasue it changes does not mean we will stop doing other things.

I seem to have lost your point.

Reply #6517 Posted: March 20, 2009, 12:48:28 am

Offline huey31415

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This is an interesting article about flaws in the theory of evolution. I haven't read the whole thing, but I can see it's good ;)

Just watch out for the morons at the end, arguing about cones and spheres being round.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13620-evolution-24-myths-and-misconceptions.html?DCMP=ILC-hmts&nsref=top1_head_Evolution:%2024%20myths%20and%20misconceptions

Reply #6518 Posted: March 20, 2009, 01:03:29 am

Offline TeamWang

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Quote from: huey31415;907451
This is an interesting article about flaws in the theory of evolution. I haven't read the whole thing, but I can see it's good ;)


I can't figure out if you're trying to be ironic. The article supports evolution, it's just exposing common misconceptions about what it is or isn't.

However on a more serious note, for those clinging to the religious dogma of gravitational theory this article is a must read.

Reply #6519 Posted: March 20, 2009, 01:36:20 am

Offline Zig

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Quote from: TeamWang;907452
However on a more serious note, for those clinging to the religious dogma of gravitational theory this article is a must read.

Bahaha. That is gold.

Quote
If we have Universal Gravity now, then Universal health care will be sure to follow. It is this kind of Universalism that saps a nation's moral fiber.

Truer words have never been spoken....

Definitely a +1, just what I needed at 2am...

Reply #6520 Posted: March 20, 2009, 01:57:35 am

Offline ThaFleastyler

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Quote from: cobra;907182
that question is difficult but the simple answer is no, science doesn't explain everything there are plenty of things out side of sciences scopes - for example, questions like "why do people listen to lady gaga and coldplay" science would be of little use, that is more for the psychologists and the sociologists - the tools of science are excellent for working out most things but like most tools you can only use it for appropriate jobs

I was really meaning things within sciences' realm.

If you can admit that there are things ("occurrences") that science cannot answer:
Does that not leave room for a superior intelligence or god-like entity to exist? I think my point being, can science really state unequivocally that a god-like entity does not exist?


Quote from: cobra;907182
but a similar challenge that i will give you - are there any questions that religion can answer?

I will come back to this - I just wan t to finish the line of questioning above.

PS: Feynman is awesome - he's a regular guest on a science-based podcast I listen to. Do you happen to have links for the Lectures on Physics?

Reply #6521 Posted: March 20, 2009, 07:29:00 am

Offline cobra

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Quote from: ThaFleastyler;907481
I was really meaning things within sciences' realm.

If you can admit that there are things ("occurrences") that science cannot answer:
Does that not leave room for a superior intelligence or god-like entity to exist? I think my point being, can science really state unequivocally that a god-like entity does not exist?


science can not state that a god-like being does not exist, but that does not mean that a god-like being does exist or it is reasonable to think that one does - science can not state that a leprechaun-like entity does not exist but it can look for leprechaun like activity and the absence of that suggests that there are no leprechauns

Quote from: ThaFleastyler;907481

PS: Feynman is awesome - he's a regular guest on a science-based podcast I listen to. Do you happen to have links for the Lectures on Physics?


ok - now i have something to think about - Feynman has been dead 20 years and he is a guest on a podcast? <- well if god was going to resurrect someone else at least this time its a physisist

I downloaded the lectures off soulseek - they shouldn't be to difficult to find if you dig about, and well worth it

Quote from: TeamWang;907452
I can't figure out if you're trying to be ironic. The article supports evolution, it's just exposing common misconceptions about what it is or isn't.

However on a more serious note, for those clinging to the religious dogma of gravitational theory this article is a must read.



im going to have to think about gravity now wang, because i have never seen it and tbh i can not prove that it is just not gods love holding everything in place - thought provoking.

Reply #6522 Posted: March 20, 2009, 07:57:39 am

Offline ThaFleastyler

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Quote from: cobra;907489
science can not state that a god-like being does not exist, but that does not mean that a god-like being does exist or it is reasonable to think that one does - science can not state that a leprechaun-like entity does not exist but it can look for leprechaun like activity and the absence of that suggests that there are no leprechauns

Wait, wait, wait ... you don't believe in leprechauns either?!

Just kidding :chuckle:

See, this - to me - is where you and I differ in our thinking; where you see a lack of evidence for a god, I see room for the existence of a god. Maybe its just something hard-wired into our brains? I don't know. It also speaks to the idea that things that myself and other believers accept as evidence (such as anecdotal evidence, or 'divine interventions') aren't accepted widely as evidence of the existence of a god.

We've probably covered all this ground before.
Quote from: cobra;907489
ok - now i have something to think about - Feynman has been dead 20 years and he is a guest on a podcast? <- well if god was oing to resurrect someone else at least this time its a physisist

Ha! Clearly we're thinking of different people :D
I'll try dig up the lectures. Thanks man.

Edit: It's psychology professor Richard Wiseman I'm thinking of - the lesson as always: I'm an idiot :D

Reply #6523 Posted: March 20, 2009, 08:35:46 am

Offline Tiwaking!

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Quote from: Bell;907331
Just the surface will do.
Name one way in-which human nature has changed in say the last 100 years

Here is a good quote from a movie I detest
Quote from: Waking Life - 2001

When you come to think of it, almost all human behavior and activity is not essentially any different from animal behavior. The most advanced technologies and craftsmanship bring us, at best, up to the super-chimpanzee level. Actually, the gap between, say, Plato or Nietzsche and the average human is greater than the gap between that chimpanzee and the average human. The realm of the real spirit, the true artist, the saint, the philosopher, is rarely achieved.

Why so few? Why is world history and evolution not stories of progress but rather this endless and futile addition of zeroes. No greater values have developed. Hell, the Greeks 3,000 years ago were just as advanced as we are. So what are these barriers that keep people from reaching anywhere near their real potential? The answer to that can be found in another question, and that’s this: Which is the most universal human characteristic - fear or laziness?

Reply #6524 Posted: March 20, 2009, 08:42:51 am
I am now banned from GetSome