Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

[Scunner]

I've always thought that Atheism takes just as much faith and belief as any religion. An Atheist and a religious person take the same leap of faith, just in opposite directions. While there is nothing that directly proves there is a higher power, there is also nothing to directly disprove it and its just as irrational to say there is no higher power (although I would'nt say that either belief is irrational).

[Bell]

That's correct.
That is why being agnostic is the only rational choice

[TeamWang]

That's correct.
That is why being agnostic is the only rational choice

Represent brother!

[swindle]

lol

Agnostic

[cobra]

if you are alright with being an agnostic then you need to be agnostic about everything to be consistent

Do you exist? can not prove it 100% either way, i will have to be agnostic about my own existence. are there unicorns? an not prove it 100% either way, i will have to be agnostic about unicorns....

All atheists are agnostic to some small degree but have made a decision based on the balance of evidence (well complete lack of) and the logical issues a god creates.

It requires as much faith as not believing in unicorns

[Iblis]

I've always thought that Atheism takes just as much faith and belief as any religion. An Atheist and a religious person take the same leap of faith, just in opposite directions. While there is nothing that directly proves there is a higher power, there is also nothing to directly disprove it and its just as irrational to say there is no higher power (although I would'nt say that either belief is irrational).

Does it take a leap of faith for you to not believe in Santa Claus? There is no evidence disproving his existence. How many times to atheists have to say it, lack of evidence is not a reason to believe in something. I feel for you if you believe everything brought to your attention that is not disproven.

[Scunner]

I'll admit that without absolute proof that unicorns do not exist that I would not say that they don't.

All atheists are agnostic to some small degree but have made a decision based on the balance of evidence (well complete lack of) and the logical issues a god creates.

It requires as much faith as not believing in unicorns

It still requires some faith. This still boils down to the fact that an Atheist has taken the step of believing there is no god based on their observations and experiences. If an Athiest is to then say that it is irrational or illogical for someone to believe there is a god, based on their observations and experiences, then it is somewhat hypocritical and ignorant.

Does it take a leap of faith for you to not believe in Santa Claus? There is no evidence disproving his existence.

Are you trying to say Santa isn't real? :eek:

[Bell]

if you are alright with being an agnostic then you need to be agnostic about everything to be consistent

Well first define "god".
Am I agnostic about the Christian god? No (but so are the other religions and they aren't atheist)
There are far too many inconsistencys for me to believe that, I have something to base my disbelief on.
Same thing goes for Magical Unicorns.

Am I agnostic about a higher being of any description, be it an advanced life form with the ability to create life or whatever... yes.

I have absolutely nothing to base my theories on therefore I can't even begin make that call.
How do you disprove something undefined?

[Iblis]

If an Athiest is to then say that it is irrational or illogical for someone to believe there is a god, based on their observations and experiences, then it is somewhat hypocritical and ignorant.

It is not hypocritical and ignorant. Nor do atheists say this is based on their "observations and experiences" as you attempted to personalise it into appearing as though atheists are just as subjective as religious individuals. Atheists weigh all the evidence and history and will accept any correlation between the empirical evidence and biblical lore. The problem is, there isn't any.

Instead of arguing the same points in a circle with christians in this thread, I'm going to continue to introduce glaring logical problems that christianity and the bible exhibit and if the christians cannot disprove each and every one, then I must be right by default.

I'll kick it off:
#1: Why is it that the bible describes a time when people were turned into salt, god himself spoke DIRECTLY TO THOUSANDS OF WITNESSES AT ONCE, angels frequently visited people, THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WITNESSED MIRACLES such as parting of seas and Jesus producing two loaves and a fish for everyone, and other such crazy nonsense, when today, nothing even remotely similar has occurred on such grandiose scales that cannot be explained by simple weather or scientific means? Is god asleep?

[3viction]

I'll kick it off:
#1: Why is it that the bible describes a time when people were turned into salt, god himself spoke DIRECTLY TO THOUSANDS OF WITNESSES AT ONCE, angels frequently visited people, THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WITNESSED MIRACLES such as parting of seas and Jesus producing two loaves and a fish for everyone, and other such crazy nonsense, when today, nothing even remotely similar has occurred on such grandiose scales that cannot be explained by simple weather or scientific means? Is god asleep?

I think its just happening on a smaller scale now. For example a guy I know was playing rugby, he sprained his ankle and was limping around. A mate saw it and said hey man can I pray for it. He prayed for it and then put his hand on it and straight away it was healed, the guy could walk on it normally and there was no pain in it at all.

How do you explain that?

[Zarathrustra]

[Iblis]

How do you explain that?

Endorphins and psychosomatic response. Did he neglect to tell you it hurt like a bitch later that night?
Edit: are all injuries permanent? Ever bang your elbow? Is it useless for days?

[Zarathrustra]

I think its just happening on a smaller scale now. For example a guy I know was playing rugby, he sprained his ankle and was limping around. A mate saw it and said hey man can I pray for it. He prayed for it and then put his hand on it and straight away it was healed, the guy could walk on it normally and there was no pain in it at all.

How do you explain that?

Sorry, and no offence (well, maybe a little), but I call bullshit.

Somewhere in the world, at the same time your mate hurt his ankle, a child was being raped.  The kid was praying that she'd survive the ordeal, but the guy murdered her once he was done.

I guess god was too busy watching the rugby.

[cobra]

I'll admit that without absolute proof that unicorns do not exist that I would not say that they don't.

think about this - why is it different saying this for a god

....If an Athiest is to then say that it is irrational or illogical for someone to believe there is a god, based on their observations and experiences, then it is somewhat hypocritical and ignorant.

why is it hypocritical and ignorant?

not all decisions are equal, it is fair enough to say some one is irrational or illogical if they are making irrational or illogical choices based on their observations and experiences. For example it would be irrational or illogical for me, based on my observation and experiences of horses, to say that magical unicorns definitely do exist - but you are claiming it would be hypocritical and ignorant for any one to claim that.

[Distorted]

Oh jesus-o, jesus-o, wherefore art thou jesus-o?
My niece went under the knife for open heart surgery at 6 months old with a serious condition. Friends of the family prayed for her but those prayers fell on deaf ears (either that or god was at the pub) as she got sicker.

Let your faith heal my cynicism! Can a brotha get an AMEN?!

Oh wait nevermind, modern science repaired her broken heart. Thankyou Scientific Method, my faith in you shall never wain!





jesu...SCIENCE Saves!

[Tandoori]

[video]sSh_Oc78A4o[/video]

[3viction]

Not believing me yeah thats fine but the neg rep? Thats just a little too far.

Everyone has their own views, opinions and beliefs when it comes to this subject. Let them have their say, no need to down what others have said or neg rep them..

+rep to all on page..

[KiLL3r]

I think its just happening on a smaller scale now. For example a guy I know was playing rugby, he sprained his ankle and was limping around. A mate saw it and said hey man can I pray for it. He prayed for it and then put his hand on it and straight away it was healed, the guy could walk on it normally and there was no pain in it at all.

How do you explain that?

do you have proof it was sprained? He probably just knocked it hard (it happens alot in rugby) and sure it hurts a bit and you limp but after a few mins its as good as new again. Happens to me all the time in rugby.

[Iblis]

Not believing me yeah thats fine but the neg rep? Thats just a little too far.

Everyone has their own views, opinions and beliefs when it comes to this subject. Let them have their say, no need to down what others have said or neg rep them..

+rep to all on page..

I neg repped you.
I'm going to get flak for this, because most people are in love with their romantic idealism instead of reality...
You live in kindergarten-land. Us folk who live in the real world are quick to call out bullshit when we see it. I did not sign up for your politically correct world where we don't make fun of Bobby's finger-paint because it might hurt his feelings. I would treat anyone with the same point-blank brutal honesty if they came in and started going on about how they were abducted by a UFO and forced to undergo an anal probe that telepathically conveyed to them that the end of the world would be brought about by Obama and his secret muslim cult.

[Zhija]

Oh wait nevermind, modern science repaired her broken heart. Thankyou Scientific Method, my faith in you shall never wain!

jesu...SCIENCE Saves!

This dude is lost at sea, hes a christian, and he decides to pray to God to save him.

He's quietly praying and a fishing trawler passes him, one of the sailors tosses him a rope and yells "Hey are you ok?! Get in" etc etc offering him help, but he declines, saying "God will save me."

He continues to pray when a luxury cruiser passes him, again offering help.
Again he declines, saying "God will save me."

He continues to pray until a helicopter spots him, offering him assistance, which he declines with the same reason.

He eventually dies. He gets to 'Heaven' and while he's there he speaks to God

"Why didn't you save me!?" he asked, and God replies, "What do you mean? I sent 2 boats and a chopper?"

I think its an argument that works both for and against religion.

It proves that religion can make people behave dangerously, but it shows that there is a place for God in this day and age.
This thread has changed my opinion a good few times, and I do agree religion is not the best, but I am most sure that there is a higher power up there somewhere(imo).

[Zarathrustra]

This thread has changed my opinion a good few times...

Then it's all been worth it.  Maybe after another 100 pages, you'll fully come around.

[cobra]

This dude is lost at sea, hes a christian, and he decides to pray to God to save him.

He's quietly praying and a fishing trawler passes him, one of the sailors tosses him a rope and yells "Hey are you ok?! Get in" etc etc offering him help, but he declines, saying "God will save me."

He continues to pray when a luxury cruiser passes him, again offering help.
Again he declines, saying "God will save me."

He continues to pray until a helicopter spots him, offering him assistance, which he declines with the same reason.

He eventually dies. He gets to 'Heaven' and while he's there he speaks to God

"Why didn't you save me!?" he asked, and God replies, "What do you mean? I sent 2 boats and a chopper?"

I think its an argument that works both for and against religion.

It proves that religion can make people behave dangerously, but it shows that there is a place for God in this day and age.
This thread has changed my opinion a good few times, and I do agree religion is not the best, but I am most sure that there is a higher power up there somewhere(imo).

how does it show there is a place for god?

that baby was saved by science - the science would have saved the baby if people had not prayed or even prayed for the baby to die - prayer does not have any divine effect

[Iblis]

...but I am most sure that there is a higher power up there somewhere(imo).

If by "higher power" you mean some distinct force that does not operate in relation to humans specifically, is not an anthropomorphic, jealous, spiteful deity, has absolutely no concern for our emotions, whims, and facetious imaginations, and is far removed from the concept of fate and destiny, then welcome to the dark side, my fellow atheist. It's just an invisible force indifferent to our perceptions.
If you mean a supernatural, doting pet-owner who looks after us and puts in the naughty corner when we die, then you're really just a religious apologist.

[Zhija]

religious apologist.

Pretty much.

how does it show there is a place for god?

that baby was saved by science - the science would have saved the baby if people had not prayed or even prayed for the baby to die - prayer does not have any divine effect

My god, I've managed to go through 334 posts without insulting a single person, but you are actually retarded sometimes cobra.

No offense of course

Actually I should probably explain the above statement properly: when something is posted, it is expected that a certain level of intelligence is required to receive said post, when one does not receive said post and it needs to be explained to them, that's fine, they just might not understand it too well, but when a certain person finds it difficult to understand every second post in a thread (exaggeration I admit), something is wrong.

[Iblis]

how does it show there is a place for god?

that baby was saved by science - the science would have saved the baby if people had not prayed or even prayed for the baby to die - prayer does not have any divine effect

cobra, I have an e-crush on you. If I could rep you any more, the whole system would crash.