Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

[Zarkov]

I think he means black people.

I'm sure he does.

He would never offend the Scientologists.

[Ngati_Grim]

A universe with no observers means nothing at all, which is fine, it doesn't have to mean anything. Bur humans are creatures who comprehend meaning, so it is important to us.

I would contest that we create 'meaning' or even misconstrue it to our own ends.

I would be exceedingly surprised to find that we are the only life in the Universe (well, I hope you meant life on Earth in that definition of life, which then brings us to : what if it was all for the beetles?) and will go so far as to say that anyone who thinks that is an arrogant, pompous ass.

It's a numbers game. There are more of them than us.

[philo-sofa]

It's a numbers game. There are more of them than us.

However there is infinately more thinking going on with us - which I'd argue is the real defining value, else we might as well include particualrly clever microwave ovens. Surely it's consciousness, rather than a degree of chemical complexity that is the exceptional value of life?

[Arnifix]

However there is infinately more thinking going on with us - which I'd argue is the real defining value, else we might as well include particualrly clever microwave ovens. Surely it's consciousness, rather than a degree of chemical complexity that is the exceptional value of life?

Why is that value of life more highly sought after? We are hardly the pinnacle of evolution, even on our own planet. We are not the most complex organisms. The majority of the functions our bodies fulfill can be better replicated by other lifeforms and many of the functions of our bodies are now perfectly useless. The only real advantage humans have is our adaptability.

PS. I do not include intelligence, because amongst humans it is fucking rare. Most humans cannot control their most primal selves to any substantial degree.

[Ngati_Grim]

However there is infinately more thinking going on with us - which I'd argue is the real defining value, else we might as well include particualrly clever microwave ovens. Surely it's consciousness, rather than a degree of chemical complexity that is the exceptional value of life?

Then that's us, again, wanting to be special and 'creating' the vehicle for this by defining 'life', or by giving it an extra value because of consciousness. If that is so, then it's for the dolphins
Life is.

...and my quote was purposefully obscure (sorry). I was referring to the number of planets found that are in the 'habitable zone'.

I will also contend that humans are generally stupid :/

[cobra]

If we are the only life in the universe, then statistically we are very important, even maybe the most important thing in the universe.

if you ignore the abundance of other life on this planet....

and this is coming from a very life-centric position. i think quarks are the most important thing in the universe.

[Apostrophe Spacemonkey]

if you ignore the abundance of other life on this planet....

What 'other' life?

All life on this planet is related.

[cobra]

What 'other' life?

All life on this planet is related.

so by "we" you mean all life on earth, thats wasn't to clear.

still a very life-centric position to take

[ThaFleastyler]

i think quarks are the most important thing in the universe.

I ask this completely separately from the discussion, because I'm interested:
Why do you think this? (assuming you were serious) Quarks are pretty awesome, no doubt. I just wonder why you think they're the most important thing in the universe.

[Bell]

In related news
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=843517

[Bell]

and this is coming from a very life-centric position. i think quarks are the most important thing in the universe.

Pfft quarks are so 1995.
11 dimensional strings are more important

[Iblis]

In related news
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=843517

Prayer: it cures injured rugby ankles but not Diabeetus. God wanted her to die. pic related




Also, did anyone notice that this thread is 27666? Awesome!

[KiLL3r]

http://friendlyatheist.com/2009/08/09/virgin-mary-makes-an-ironic-appearance/

[Dante]

Jew styles yo

Selah!

[video]W0oHAgfVgiw[/video]

[video]d6EvmvYzvj0[/video]

[cobra]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/2746510/Faith-healers-attack-cancer-with-prayer

bless them, using faith to scam people

[KiLL3r]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/2746510/Faith-healers-attack-cancer-with-prayer

bless them, using faith to scam people

"Patients were not charged and were counselled to not stop regular medical treatment."

good to see they arnt scamming at least but surely you wouldnt need regular medical treatment if jesus is healing you?


"Rea said patients with problems as diverse as stroke paralysis, cancer or dyslexia were cured, usually within one 20-minute session."

Cancer cured in 20minutes? wow!


"One sceptic, Phil Tauwhare, said he had a history of bladder disease. On two occasions he went to the healers in great pain and urinating blood. After his healing sessions he felt worse than before, he said.

He went to a doctor who gave him antibiotics that cleared up the problem in three days. "I thought, `What's going on here?"'

However, he became a believer when a subsequent checkup showed he had seven tumours in his bladder. He had several prayer sessions, and surgeons could find only three tumours after that."

i am honestly lost for words at the stupidity...

[cobra]

"Patients were not charged and were counselled to not stop regular medical treatment."

this wont be a free service, you will be pressured to "donate" (much like churches)

and what the fuck is aggressive prayer?

[ThaFleastyler]

Try to let me answer this one

"Aggressive" prayer is like regular prayer, except louder, more pleading and begging God than usual, and typical goes for longer too. Often it can involve singing, and also can involving "exorcising demons". I'm fairly skeptical of the practice - if one believes prayer works, then one must believe that prayer works regardless of the "aggressiveness" displayed; thus, "aggressive" prayer is merely an attempt to illicit (sic) an emotional reaction.

As for the money-making, I'm sure that probably happens too, sadly.

To me, prayer is something that should happen behind closed doors - if a person wants prayer, they should just seek it out, not sit in a waiting room and wait for it. For shame!

That said, as long as they encourage regular medical treatment, I kinda think 'no harm, no foul'. The real problem comes when persons of any belief - and fundamentalist christians are probably most guilty of this - start to claim that they don't need regular medical treatment. That is a tragedy, and should be treated as a crime, imo.

[Arnifix]

The problem as I see it flea, is that any promotion or endorsement of such an event or practice by any form of media is essentially going to imply that scientific medicine is not needed.

Even the headline of that stuff article implies that they are "attacking" the illness. They aren't. They are praying and then something completely unrelated is happening. It's intellectually dishonest and I sincerely hope they enjoy BURNING IN HELL THE GODLESS HEATHENS!

[cobra]

That said, as long as they encourage regular medical treatment, I kinda think 'no harm, no foul'. The real problem comes when persons of any belief - and fundamentalist christians are probably most guilty of this - start to claim that they don't need regular medical treatment. That is a tragedy, and should be treated as a crime, imo.

to me lying to vulnerable people is criminal, if prayer worked there would be identifiable evidence but there is no evidence.

[ThaFleastyler]

to me lying to vulnerable people is criminal, if prayer worked there would be identifiable evidence but there is no evidence.

I understand that.

But in this case, they are a) praying for people who likely already believe prayer can work, thus making them not vulnerable, as vulnerable people would be roped in against their will - as far as I can tell, if you end up in this prayer place, chances are you went looking for prayer to begin with anyways; and b) ensuring they still seek proper medical care. It would be different if they were getting people in under false pretences - but they aren't. What they appear to be saying is "hey, keep up your medical treatment, but why not let us pray - it can't hurt" (and maybe "... and after we're done praying, take a look at why you should donate" lol).

There is a difference between being against something because it is damaging and being against something because you don't agree with it.

[krasher]

to me lying to vulnerable people is criminal, if prayer worked there would be identifiable evidence but there is no evidence.

That is why they should not teach evolution in schools.

[Zarkov]

This site is the business.

http://www.landoverbaptist.org/index1208.html


WAR ON CHRISTMAS CASUALTY REPORT:
Angry Mob of Baptist Children Attack Santa Claus Outside Local Mall!

Keeping the Christ in Christmas!

Freehold Iowa - Dick Dawkins, an unrepentant Atheist and local troublemaker is hospitalized and remains in not-critical-enough condition at the Landover Baptist Memorial Hospital for the Saved. Earlier this week, Dawkins thought he'd have a little fun at the expense of Christian sensitivity by dressing up as a pagan pedophile ("Santa Claus") and undermining the Jesusness of the cutthroat sale-searching going on at the Landover Baptist Shopping Mall.

"Santa ended up with a red butt full of lead before he made it halfway through the parking lot," Pastor Deacon Fred told reporters. "He also got himself two black eyes that made him look more like Frosty the Snowman than Lucifer’s gift-giving ambassador here on Earth!" As an annual precaution, Baptist Security officers and deputized Deacons are armed with shotguns, pepper spray and bullwhips, and stationed at each mall entranceway during the Christmas season. As usual, they all had orders to shoot Santa Claus on sight. Because of the 4-minute spray of bullets that downed the entire shoe department at JC Penny's last year, Pastor and Kay Jewelry salesmen Harold Pinkler had instructed mall security, 'Don't fire until you see the whites of his furry cuffs!'  But thanks to the Godly efforts of our Baptist Junior High School students and and three young members of our Tots-4-Jesus Prayer Squad who were out putting, Jesus is the Reason for the Season flyers on car windows in the mall parking lot, Santa Claus' feeble attempt to spoil Christmas for True Christians™ ended on the tarmac outside the east wing of the Freehold, Iowa Baptist Mall.  Praise God, who knows how many happy, Christian sweater shoppers' lives were saved by trying to kill Santa out in the parking lot this year!"

Dozens of Christian children from a Junior High Sunday School class were awarded the Landover Baptist Medal of Convenient Christian Service during last weekend's morning worship after risking their lives and a game of hockey to save the true meaning of Christmas. "Each of these children tell me they acted instinctively out of Godly concern as soon as they saw that fat red demon squeeze out of his VW Bug which was plastered with vile 'Obama '08' and 'Peace on Earth' bumper stickers,"  Pastor told parishioners on Sunday. "One boy tells me heard the voice of Jesus inside his heart whispering, 'There he is, Billy! There be the demon, Santa... My Nemesis. Creep softly My son... and make not a sound as you do My bidding.  I live within you and My strength will guide you... NOW, GET THAT DANG FAT OLD DEMON! and Kill! Kill! KILL!' "

"Our precious Christian children snuck up behind Santa Claus and beat him unconscious," said Pastor Deacon Fred.  "Then they held him down while Billy pumped a few rounds into his enormous behind.  When ambulances arrived almost two hours later, a crowd of cheering church members along with the entire Landover Baptist Junior High Youth Group had already shown up. I'm told that each of them had a Godly opportunity to kick and spit on that old devil."

Billy Henshaw recalls, "When we had Santa down, I called everyone I knew on my cell phone and told them all, 'Get down here as fast as you can if you want to get a punch in on this pagan troll before the ambulance shows up!  I then used my phone to take photos of his wiener with that devil cap of his on it. You can see a bunch more photos of that sack of Jesus hating crap all half dead and stuff posted on my Facebook page! Just send me a tell and I'll send you the link." There were also several unsaved children, still angry about being tricked into good behavior who were happy for the opportunity to take a few spirited whacks at the man who had falsely promised them iPods and Playstations last year.

Santa Claus remains in critical condition on a gurney outside the loading dock at Landover Baptist Memorial Hospital for the Saved. "We don't have him on life support or anything, he's just got some bruised ribs, a bloody rear end, two black eyes, and it sounds like he's having a real rough time breathing that invigorating 18-degree air out there," says Creation Scientist, Dr. Jonathan Edwards. "We're just gonna hold him here for a week or two till someone from the ACLU gets here to pick him up or the sanitation people cart him off in one of their smelly trucks."

The Landover Baptist Church teaches Tots-4-Jesus that Santa's belly is fat because it is filled with the bodies of the little Christian boys and girls he kidnaps through their chimneys and feasts upon with his demonic elves in his hellish lair in the North Pole. "Thanks to True Christian™ learnings, a set of Republican values are instilled into the hearts and minds of our Christian children at a very early age," says Pastor Deacon Fred.  "That is, the message of Jesus' love is what this month is all about -- and we are willing to crack some skulls to keep it that way! A-men?These kiddies' spontaneous show of Christmas spirit is a demonstration that our conservative teachings and values work!  Praise God!  And let this be a lesson to all you parents out there who are tempted to forget the Christmas story by writing 'From Santa' and not 'From Jesus' on presents: A smelly manger in Bethlehem would seem like the Ritz-Carlton compared to a rat-infested, Iowa hospital loading dock in the dead of winter, my friends!"

[cobra]

I understand that.

But in this case, they are a) praying for people who likely already believe prayer can work, thus making them not vulnerable, as vulnerable people would be roped in against their will - as far as I can tell, if you end up in this prayer place, chances are you went looking for prayer to begin with anyways; and b) ensuring they still seek proper medical care. It would be different if they were getting people in under false pretences - but they aren't. What they appear to be saying is "hey, keep up your medical treatment, but why not let us pray - it can't hurt" (and maybe "... and after we're done praying, take a look at why you should donate" lol).

There is a difference between being against something because it is damaging and being against something because you don't agree with it.

and there is a difference blindly agreeing with things because they suit your religious agenda

these people have terminal illnesses, making them vulnerable to the lies these people are telling, these people will be in no position to make rational decisions about what might cure there illnesses.

b) there is a difference between not discouraging medical treatment and encouraging medical treatment, all that was said in the article is that they dont discourage medical treatment.

all they are doing is selling lies to vulnerable people

[nick247]

See, you might think creationists are being arrogant - and its not just creationists, by the way: anyone who believes in a god, not just a Christian god, believes that the universe was "created" one way or another, just for us

organised religion is like a nigerian scamster...

They make you think you are special despite there being no reason for them to email you in particular in the first place.

They tell you a bunch of shit that isnt true but sounds like it could be true...and fuck it you dont have time to go and do some due diligence tests (checking out the story for yourself)

You are promised some reward that may or may not exist.

Luckily there is more to religion nowadays such as community involvement, being surrounded by relatively like minded people, meeting new friends.....basically a whole bunch of things that have nothing to do with the actual doctrine of the religion.

Its like you really like playing computer games and there is a local games club near your house. But the problem is they play Everquest and you prefer WoW. But you go along anyway because its cool to be around other gamers.

I would argue that the actual doctrine of the religion is becoming a bunch of irrelevent BS to the new generation of followers.

ANd i will also say that if the main reason you follow your religion is because you believe that its doctrine is 100% correct and its the "right one", then you are a fucking idiot and should go give some money to the nigerians