Call to jail parents who break video game age limits

[Pyromanik]

^ isn't there a documentary out where they investigate the so called 'independent' board?

"this film is not yet rated" iirc.

[GhostOfGallipoli]

US is not NZ


we dont have the ESRB

[BeNZene]

HUGE amounts of money. So much money that there has never been a transparent track of the amount of money spent on just rating a game.

The fees for classifying publications are set down in the Films, Videos, and Publications Classifcation  (Fees) Regulations 1993. Electronic  games have  a  specifed base  fee  of $1,400, plus an additional fee of $100 per hour or part of an hour for time in excess of 5 hours spent examining the electronic game. All fees are GST inclusive.

I guess huge is subjective.  Of course, that fee above doesn't apply to some games, which don't need to be rated, namely:
- any video game carrying an Australian G, PG or M rating, and
- any video game carrying a British U, Uc, PG, 12 or 12A rating

In 2007/8 they considered 55 games, of which 9 were rated R18. Big money.

(Sources: Policy Advice 1 and 5 here and the annual report here)

Ultimately the ESRB(Entertainment Software Rating Board) control ALL game ratings.

Although not NZ, which doesn't accept their ratings.  Perhaps control over the Office of Film and Literature Censorship is excercised through their control of the UK and Australian authorities?

[GhostOfGallipoli]

tiwa, im talking about NZ only, put your tinfoil hat away



i'm talking about shitty parents, not taking an interest in their kids, not paying attention to what they are trying to buy, and going fucking ballistic at my staff and I when i try to do something as simple as comply with the law

yes, i understand that it's "just a game", and it's just a tiny bit of weed, a fraction over the speed limit, you only put some of the knife into that guy...the law's the law and last time i check "but it's a stupid law" was not a defence

as it stands at the moment, they wouldn't dare go after the parents, who 9 times out of 10 either bullied or outright lied to supply the game to someone under the age....they'll go after the shop and the staff, cause it's easier.

and im sorry, my job, and jobs of my staff are worth more than you having a quiet weekend because little timmy is too busy killing hookers in his room to bother you

i would rather see a reasonably sensible ratings system (which IMO we already have) coupled with some decent enforcement against shops AND parents who supply these rated items to kids. i'm sick to death of people skiting that the warehouse sold it to them, or a video shop never asks when im following the law.


games are more realistic now than they ever have been, and will continue to be....no i dont think games turn people into killing machines.....but when you see the types of parents that typically try to buy this stuff for their kids...jesus, the question of why this country's kids seem to be batshit insane is answered:


shithouse parents, no limits, no supervision, and the constant reinforcement that violence, bullying and deceit will get you what you want

[Hayesy]

tiwa, im talking about NZ only, put your tinfoil hat away



i'm talking about shitty parents, not taking an interest in their kids, not paying attention to what they are trying to buy, and going fucking ballistic at my staff and I when i try to do something as simple as comply with the law

yes, i understand that it's "just a game", and it's just a tiny bit of weed, a fraction over the speed limit, you only put some of the knife into that guy...the law's the law and last time i check "but it's a stupid law" was not a defence

as it stands at the moment, they wouldn't dare go after the parents, who 9 times out of 10 either bullied or outright lied to supply the game to someone under the age....they'll go after the shop and the staff, cause it's easier.

and im sorry, my job, and jobs of my staff are worth more than you having a quiet weekend because little timmy is too busy killing hookers in his room to bother you

i would rather see a reasonably sensible ratings system (which IMO we already have) coupled with some decent enforcement against shops AND parents who supply these rated items to kids. i'm sick to death of people skiting that the warehouse sold it to them, or a video shop never asks when im following the law.


games are more realistic now than they ever have been, and will continue to be....no i dont think games turn people into killing machines.....but when you see the types of parents that typically try to buy this stuff for their kids...jesus, the question of why this country's kids seem to be batshit insane is answered:


shithouse parents, no limits, no supervision, and the constant reinforcement that violence, bullying and deceit will get you what you want

agreed.

but you cant effectively enforce the law at store level. Sure you can stop someone you suspect but you have no real proof so no right to do so. Plus they will only goto the next shop and buy it and you start losing sales.

im not a 100% convinced that video games do that much damage. Look at our history humans have been doing fucked up shit too each other long before computers were around.

But lets say it does do damage to kids. Do we really need games where your killing hookers or doing drug deals? perhaps the answer is to  restrict what developers put in these games? not that I think that will ever happen.

I think the best idea is for Parents take more responsibly on what their kids are playing.  Maybe the Parents need to be well educated on the damage these game could be doing.

[Dr Strange]

I agree. But I don't know if the age limit should be 18 for video games like gta it should probably be more like 16. If they are old enough to have kids and drive a car they're old enough to play gta imo.

Yeah, it's not that unusual to run over a few Negroes or Hispanics every day.

[GhostOfGallipoli]

see, now this is where it gets tricky;


as it stands now, the law says that if i have reasonable suspicion that the game is going to be supplied to someone under the age, i'm not to sell it.

 it's crazy vague

i don't need proof, just suspicion. and for me, that is having the child handle the game & bring it to the counter

now, in that situation, sure as night follows day, the parent will pipe up and go "oh in that case it's for me"... now i dont know about you, but i hate being lied to.\

so i explain that there is no parental exception for r rated games,


and things will go one of three ways;

1: parent goes ballistic, claiming that it's just a game, and i'm on some stort of power trip (one even took a swing at me)
2: parent claims that they've never been stopped before, or that so and so has always let timmy buy them in the past
3 (very rarely) they will listen to what i am saying and agree that it's fair enough


probably worth mentioning is that in most cases, the parent has been out in the foodcourt/some other shop and has no idea what their child is trying to buy

in all cases they will in all certianty go across the road and buy it at the warehouse.



now, as you can probably tell, i'm pretty sick of dealing with that crap, so most of the time when we have reasonably suspicion now we try to get a statement out of the parental

"did you realise that this game is restricted?"
"er..what? uhh yess"
"cool, so it's not going to be played by anyone under the age of XX?"
"yeah sure whatever"

all i'm looking for is a statement so i can cover my arse, and it's not cool, it's purely to stop the OFLC/target from catching us out in a sting while keeping the tills ringing.

once again reinforcing that lesson, lie and decieve kids, and you'll get what you want

[blackheartrum]

it's great you've got your policemans hat on GOG, but seriously the law wont work.

heard of steam?

Do you really beleive as gamers get into their 30's-50's and have kids under the age limits that they will create another steam account, or make two seperate game collections? maybe they'll lock their R18 games away in a time delayed gun cabinet ?

Do you think a law made for video classification which hasn't changed much in 50 years (apart from colour and improved clarity) is applicable to game content now or future ?

Does anyone play the boogeyman game GTA x beleiving it's real life? are there people out there who aren't mentally imbalanced to begin with that are going to be made antisocial? is that a crime? isn't this law basically 'thought crime' something bad might come of it but we don't have any evidence of it, we're just making restrictions because potentially we might .... do what exactly ? save a life ? I'd like to see that hypothetical scenario.

Maybe we should ban kids from swimming in oceans, every year we lose children to drowning in the sea.

[Tiwaking!]

tiwa, im talking about NZ only, put your tinfoil hat away

Censorship falls under the jurisdiction of Internal Affairs

*Dramatic Music Plays*

[GhostOfGallipoli]

it's not about being a policeman, it's about doing my job according to the rules, i dont have the luxury of picking and chosing which ones i follow

[blackheartrum]

i simply meant it's great your taking the responsibility seriously, and following the rules is important.

As for the rules themselves, they be an ass, imo.

I also think questioning the rules is very important, and doubt very much you blindly follow whatever rules are set before you, without analysing the aims, and effectiveness of them.

IE taking kids parents away to jail makes kids safer ?

[420fairy]

it's not about being a policeman, it's about doing my job according to the rules, i dont have the luxury of picking and chosing which ones i follow

I was thinking of this thread today while out at the mall, popped into EB Games purely to check what kind of display they had in relation to ratings, the fines that come with it and the stores obligation and found nothing.

Does your store clearly display these?  If i were a parent purchasing a game at this store today I probably would have laughed if the clerk mentioned anything about fines - having it clearly displayed in full view would make more of an impact and be a more active yet less strenuous effort of policing.

[Arnifix]

Does your store clearly display these?

Pretty sure they don't have to. The labels on the boxes pretty much say it all.

[420fairy]

The boxes have ratings - it doesnt spell out how hefty the penalties are etc.  The store I worked at had it clearly displayed at eye level on the counter.  You couldnt miss the $ figures next to each breach of the Act.

Its clear there are no set guidelines when it comes to what a gamer looks like, the stereotype has gone out the window- unless youre going to be suspiscious of every customer and report every customer that purchases a R rated game, you need to have something that the company stands behind that your customers can clearly visually see for those moments when some dick starts shitting on you for following the rules.

[GhostOfGallipoli]

I was thinking of this thread today while out at the mall, popped into EB Games purely to check what kind of display they had in relation to ratings, the fines that come with it and the stores obligation and found nothing.

Does your store clearly display these?  If i were a parent purchasing a game at this store today I probably would have laughed if the clerk mentioned anything about fines - having it clearly displayed in full view would make more of an impact and be a more active yet less strenuous effort of policing.

my store has an explanation of the ratings system on our stockroom door where anyone can see them, and then by each counter we have little hand out slips of paper i got from the OFLC so i can show people what they are risking, and asking me to risk

[Tiwaking!]

Make more money from games by setting up arbitrary guidelines and force publishers to either sign up or die? Exactly right

It happened with movies and music and when games got lumped with it it happened again

Its like no one ever learns

Or you can use it as a club to beat down anything which doesnt adhere to 'standards', when those 'standards' have already been compromised.

The premiere of Schnews' great film about the campaign against EDO-MBM arms factory near Brighton, and how the British police tried to stop it from being screened. All of "On the Verge" will be broadcast on visionOntv.

[Apostrophe Spacemonkey]

My borther in law lets his kids play GTA.

Some parents just don't care.

I fully support game stores doing what's right and holding to the law.

However with things like steam and such, it's still really easy to get R rated video games. There is no easy soloution.

[Tiwaking!]

Well it all boils down to this:

Why put ratings on games?

Protect childrenz? Bullshit
Educate populace? Bullshit

Make more money from games by setting up arbitrary guidelines and force publishers to either sign up or die? Exactly right

Could you explain your theory on this?  Who is making money out of the ratings scheme, and how?

It seems there isnt alot of knowledge about the history of censorship. Here is the story of the infamous X rating

Sweet Sweetback's Baadasssss Song was "Rated X by an all-white jury." The X rating in this case was a default judgment by the MPAA since Van Peebles couldn't afford to submit the film for a proper rating. (That the MPAA allowed the "X" to appear on films it never reviewed explains why it became essentially synonymous with pornography, since once the MPAA realized they could not claim it as a trademark they stopped using it as an official rating and now like to pretend that it never was one.)

[Tiwaking!]

Well it all boils down to this:

Why put ratings on games?

http://playthisthing.com/suggestion-game-rating-board-tycoon
An interesting lesson from Korea:

Game Rating Board Tycoon
Suggested Game
Submitted by perplexing on Tue, 07/27/2010 - 07:45.
http://games.heartcomplex.net/grbt/index.html
Status: Won't Do
Game Rating Board Tycoon
Developer: Irene

(I'm not the developer of this game.)

The game is simple, but I have to explain background little bit for you.

It's satire game about game rating policy in Korea. Game Rating Board is a governmental organization for rate games. It's illegal to release a game without rating in Korea, and this applied to literally all (video)games including indie's and even from hobby game developers, whether your game is freeware or commercial.

And they impose commission fee for rating, about $25 for Flash and download game under 10MB is least, for downloadable games over 300MB is about $200. It's basic fee if your game is educational and not for online multiplayer. If you make RPG with multiplayer mode and is over 300MB, you should give them about $907. This is enforcement.

If your game is not rated, they'll shut down your website. They shut down or blocked several websites and games already. And Apple voluntarily shut down their games category for Korean AppStore.

Yes, Game Rating Board Tycoon is not rated by them, and not closed. And the game is little exaggerated for satire. GRB don't shut down all games around the world, and they can't. I'm Korean, and I can play all the games on this site. But there is the law that stipulates all games should be rated and games without rating is illegal. They applicate this law anytime "when they want".

p.s the 'Game' is unplayable rubbish. Oh the sweet irony

[Tiwaking!]

HUGE amounts of money. So much money that there has never been a transparent track of the amount of money spent on just rating a game.

The fees for classifying publications are set down in the Films, Videos, and Publications Classifcation  (Fees) Regulations 1993. Electronic  games have  a  specifed base  fee  of $1,400, plus an additional fee of $100 per hour or part of an hour for time in excess of 5 hours spent examining the electronic game. All fees are GST inclusive.

I guess huge is subjective.  Of course, that fee above doesn't apply to some games, which don't need to be rated, namely:
- any video game carrying an Australian G, PG or M rating, and
- any video game carrying a British U, Uc, PG, 12 or 12A rating

In 2007/8 they considered 55 games, of which 9 were rated R18. Big money.

(Sources: Policy Advice 1 and 5 here and the annual report here)

Ultimately the ESRB(Entertainment Software Rating Board) control ALL game ratings.

Although not NZ, which doesn't accept their ratings.  Perhaps control over the Office of Film and Literature Censorship is exercised through their control of the UK and Australian authorities?

The point is New Zealand does have a rating standard, but it will generally default to some *cough* MPAA *cough* overseas standard if it can.

An update on the absurdness and hypocrisy of censorship ratings and costs:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/charlielyne/make-the-censors-watch-paint-drying

The British Board of Film Classification (previously known as the British Board of Film Censors) was established in 1912 to ensure films remained free of 'indecorous dancing', 'references to controversial politics' and 'men and women in bed together', amongst other perceived indiscretions.

Today, it continues to censor and in some cases ban films, while UK law ensures that, in effect, a film cannot be released in British cinemas without a BBFC certificate.

Each certificate costs around £1000 for a feature film of average length. For many independent filmmakers, such a large upfront can prove prohibitively expensive.

For instance, if we raise £108.59, the film will be one minute long. If we raise £526.90, it'll be an hour long. And so on.

Update: Here's a brilliant website built by Jon Ginn that tracks how long the film is, in real time.

This movie is 14 hours long.

[Pitchey]

This movie is 14 hours long.

No its not, he just has 14hrs of footage at this time.

[Apostrophe Spacemonkey]

An update on the absurdness and hypocrisy of censorship ratings and costs:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/charlielyne/make-the-censors-watch-paint-drying

The only thing that is absurd is that guy for making such a stupid film.