Decriminalisation of marijuana

[Oddball]

...

I kind of attacked the whole 'cannabis causes schizophrenia / psychosis' argument, because it makes me somewhat angry or annoyed, and ignored the one where it helps with it.

And honestly it can't be said for a fact either way. I think it might help some people with it, even if it's just to relax and calm down and put your thoughts in perspective, it kind of slows the rate of incoming active thought circulation (there's a psychological term for when you think a negative thought, and that is followed by another, and they build on each other until you're severely depressed, sometimes even leading to suicide as a worst-case-scenario) allowing you to deal with them and separate them out before they 'collide'. That said, you can still function and think while under the effects of cannabis but your mind 'talks' less (hence italicizing the word 'active' for lack of a proper term). If anything it stops you being distracted!

Helps with depression for sure, anxiety too. But the actual positive psychotic or schizophrenic symptoms may not be helped at all, I couldn't really tell you.

[dirtyape]

It has some positive effects, but that doesn't mean it should be prescribed as a treatment for such ailments. I'm more saying that in leiu of any other alternative people tend to use it, probably with no idea of it's positive, and negative effects. But, those people that are affected by such ailments probably already were so it is not the drug causing it which is the point. It cannot be used as a reason for the drug to be illegal. So why is it illegal?

[Oddball]

So why is it illegal?

Ignorance, in a nut shell.

I wouldn't smoke it even if it was legal for my own reasons, but legalizing it, imo, would help a lot of people. And like I said previously, the people who'd abuse it in excess, are people who'd generally never get anywhere to begin with.

Another reason is fear, I suppose; I mean as long as it's criminalized any potential unknown side effects stay somewhat in-check, if as many people smoked marijuana as those who used alcohol or cigarettes and for some reason an unidentified side effect came into play virtually everyone would be affected. That's something I'd imagine OTHER people thinking, not myself - because it's illogical, but people have shown no end to the ability of allowing illogical thoughts to terrify them.

[Black Heart]

personally, i think legalising it or decriminalising it at best would highlight its true social impact. Despite the minority claims of being actually beneficial, I feel the reality would be vastly different.

[Tandoori]

Too much bullshit, not enough fact.

[BeNZene]

If cannabis use doesn't increase as a result of decriminalisation, then presumably the health or social impact of cannabis use stops being an argument against decriminalisation?

Given three Australian states have decriminalised cannabis in the past 25 years (SA, NT & ACT), it would not be hard to study what (if any) changes occurred over time as a result.  NSW, Vic, Qld & WA can be used as controls.  Given the similarities between NZ and Australia, it's probably as close a model as you could get for what might happen in NZ.

Lo and behold, a google appears and delivers a copy of an article from the Journal of Public Health Policy in 2000:
http://www.parl.gc.ca/Content/SEN/Committee/371/ille/presentation/single-e.htm

The key finding is probably this one:

Impacts on patterns of cannabis use: The potential impact of the introduction of the [decriminalisation] upon levels and patterns of cannabis use in South Australia has been assessed in several drug use surveys, with each analysis adding more recent data to the picture (eg, 11, 18, 19). None of the studies have found an increase in cannabis use in the South Australian community which is attributable to [decriminalisation]. Lifetime use of cannabis did increase significantly in South Australia from 26% in 1985 to 36% in 1995, but similar increases were observed over the same period in jurisdictions with a total prohibition approach to cannabis, such as Victoria and Tasmania.

[Spork]

Aww yea, SAs all up in this shit.

Can have i think two ounces, or possibly three, before you get charged.

[Emrico1]

That's a lot of mull bru

[dirtyape]

Too much bullshit, not enough fact.

Care to elaborate on your mostly pointless comment?

[Oddball]

Care to elaborate on your mostly pointless comment?

Well I kinda get what he's saying [?] I think..

There really aren't many conclusive studies as to the effects of cannabis - sure there are studies but a lot are either utter bullshit or an 'idea' of a possibility. Saying it causes schizophrenia is one of those things that seems like grasping at straws for reasons to keep it criminalized; it's very very likely that it accelerates the damage that schizophrenia develops from but it's near impossible for it to actually cause it, and that's only one example of an area of uncertainty.

Then there's the whole psychosis paranoia when you're high which is nothing more than a lie and complete bullshit, but there's really no proof towards that unless you have first hand experience - and that only proves it to yourself. Then again it's also kind of logical, if you had truly psychotic symptoms you'd never take it again... if you hadn't killed yourself during them; my reasoning for saying that is experiencing the paranoia symptoms without the illness building up to that point, as in, you're hit with it all in one go, just out of nowhere, there'd be a high chance of suicide and as a result it'd be either more, or just as illegal as heroin... But you can't exactly prove that either, a PhD psychiatrist for example might know how to treat it, what his patients have said they go through, and develop understanding over the years, but the reality is that not even they can comprehend what it's actually like to experience it. Nor is it evidence.

Even if his comment is 'mostly pointless' it made a fair bit of sense to me, but perhaps he intended it in a different way.

[mattnz]

It's really not 'complex'. In fact it's not even completely 100% true. But it still has some merit to it.

Schizophrenia and Psychosis are illnesses that can be caused by a lot of things, they are extremely severe cases of dysfunction of the brain that results in less than desirable effects, for lack of better words. In fact the thought that something as weak as cannabis can cause either of those is... beyond absurd.

The reason I say it still has some merit to it is because said illnesses are triggered by damage to the brain, and I can see how smoking it would be destructive to someone who is being traumatized by whatever events surround them.


If that doesn't make sense, then this is what I'm ultimately saying:

Cannabis can trigger the process towards becoming schizophrenic of psychotic, or it can become involved in the degenerative process. Cannabis on it's own wont give anyone schizophrenia or psychosis. It's far, far, far, far too weak.

As for the paranoia induced by marijuana being reported to resemble psychotic symptoms... The person smoking weed would never smoke it again. Not much more to say about that.

Also here's something interesting; weed was regularly used in the 1960s and 1970s but the rate of schizophrenia flat lined, even declined a little. The media's taking made up unproven figures to back up criminalization of weed.

Double posting for unrelated topics.


TLDR: If cannabis gave you schizophrenia or psychosis you would of probably gotten it either way, but good job speeding it up - but not even that is proven. That said, it could potentially worsen it in people who already suffer from it.

Sorry m80, my dissertation was on the link between cannabis and schizophrenia. I do know a little about it.

It is reasonably well established that cannabis use can be a causal factor in later development of psychoses. It is, however, considered a 'constellation cause' - one which needs other factors (genetic predilection, early onset of use) to develop into psychosis.

[timmo]

I am not satisfied by traditional stoner arguments that weed should be decriminalized or legalized on the residual notion that 'we have legal tobacco and alcohol and they're as bad or worse', because all it really argues for is the compounding of more problematic factors.

No it doesn't- For the most part, what you would see is substitution towards less harmful substances (i.e. instead of people drinking, the would move to more benign substances...and that includes other less harmful substances which are currently illegal such as Ecstasy.

[swindle]

Ah, one of these threads. Again.

Well, hell I may as well say my peace.

I've been a pretty regular user for nearly 10 years.

I started regular in my last year of college. I left college half way through my last year to pursue an apprenticeship in Plumbing and Gasfitting with the largest and best company in the lower north island. I have finished my apprenticeship in both fields and become qualified in both. High marks the whole time. I have had a daughter who is the light of my life. She is fun, smart and well mannered. She doesn't know I do it (she is 5, but somewhat besides the point) and never will. I have never and will never use in front of her, or while she is in my care. That is irresponsible. I have also taught myself everything I know about computers. Building them, using them, problem solving them. Same applying to photography. I don't claim to be any good, but everything I know is self taught. I never miss a day of work, I never neglect my child.

It is what you make of it at the end of the day. Abuse alcohol, and you will probably end up dead. Abuse pot and the same could very well happen I suppose.

This thread though, is pretty much this...
 

[Munchie]

Legalize so we can finally grow and use hemp based products.
And those who like to come home and smoke a joint should be able to do so without fear of prosecution that was based on a lie back in the 1930's.

It's time to wake up and see this little plant isn't just about drugs, but the amount of uses for it is amazing.

[Lias]

Legalize so we can finally grow and use hemp based products.
And those who like to come home and smoke a joint should be able to do so without fear of prosecution that was based on a lie back in the 1930's.

It's time to wake up and see this little plant isn't just about drugs, but the amount of uses for it is amazing.

Hemp (Cannibat Sativa with low THC Content) IS grown commercially and used for pretty much everything you can do with pot apart from smoking it.. The strain of pot that gets you high is pretty much only good for getting you high, it's not a good strain for industrial use.

[Spork]

And what a good use that is.

[Black Heart]

making suits for tando nacho the green party politician that will never be as useful as hemp

[420fairy]

This might be interesting to make some comparisons: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_cannabis_by_country

Fairy, I've been meaning to watch that doco and will do before I enter discussion. An objective opinion is required.

now everyone knows im so pro 420 in isnt even funny however i did approach this doco with an open mind, watched it with my mother in law who is anti cannabis and after watching it she was impressed; no longer anti weed.  the thing i liked about it was it wasnt made by stoners or actors - its  a well compiled with research done by various heads of medicine across the world and it all points to one thing.

decri/legalising will never happen  due to money - pharmaceuticals who rely on your hundreds of dollars to "cure" your illness will fold - who would pay for their chemical bs when something you can grow for free at home can cure so many illnesses in particular illnesses that plague so many.  cannabinoids and endo cannibinoids working together to kill off cancer cells etc.  watch it its pure win

it covers everything you have raised here - from "side effects" etc - and you will  be suprised to hear HOW MANY of these head scientists blow the hole schizophrenia induced by cannabis out of the water.  so many years of the media and pharmaceuticals telling you why its bad - youve been fed a lot of lies.

What if Cannabis Cured Cancer explains how we are all born with a form of marijuana already in our bodies, and when pot is consumed, the endocannabinoids inside us, along with any cannabinoids we ingest, fit together like a key in a lock.

Thereby promoting the death of cancer cells without harming the body’s healthy cells.

small clip

[The Demon Lord]

Sorry m80, my dissertation was on the link between cannabis and schizophrenia. I do know a little about it.

It is reasonably well established that cannabis use can be a causal factor in later development of psychoses. It is, however, considered a 'constellation cause' - one which needs other factors (genetic predilection, early onset of use) to develop into psychosis.

Out of curiosity - what did you study? and could you post any points/sections from your Dissertation that would be relevent here?

[Oddball]

Sorry m80, my dissertation was on the link between cannabis and schizophrenia. I do know a little about it.

It is reasonably well established that cannabis use can be a causal factor in later development of psychoses. It is, however, considered a 'constellation cause' - one which needs other factors (genetic predilection, early onset of use) to develop into psychosis.

Your wordings a bit weird, so to clarify you're saying that taking cannabis can cause you to later develop psychosis?? It only accelerates it if you were already going to get it. Cannabis isn't anywhere near potent enough to do the damage necessary to develop psychosis or schizophrenia.

[The Demon Lord]

Your wordings a bit weird, so to clarify you're saying that taking cannabis can cause you to later develop psychosis?? It only accelerates it if you were already going to get it. Cannabis isn't anywhere near potent enough to do the damage necessary to develop psychosis or schizophrenia.

What do you mean his wording is weird?

made perfect sense to me....

[mattnz]

Well it was only a two semester honours thingy (in psychology), so I wouldn't draw any strong conclusions from it here, except for that a majority of 100-level psyc students have used cannabis.

People who have ever used cannabis are about 1.5 times more likely to develop psychosis (though it's obviously quite difficult to establish causality). This effect is dose-dependent; people who have used more than 50 times are about 2.9 times more likely to develop schizophrenia.

More relevant studies include this one (using a NZ cohort, no less), where it was found that, controlling for psychotic symptoms at age 11, cannabis use still predicted increased psychotic outcomes.

Also this one (can't find a free link unfortunately), where it was found that cannabis use interacted with genetic liability for schizophrenia, disproportionately affecting those at high-risk for psychosis (defined as having two or more first- or second-degree relatives with schizophrenia) compared to typical controls. These high-risk individuals were 6-7 times more likely to develop psychosis (compare with the numbers for general population).

Of course, schizophrenia is very uncommon (lifetime prevalence ~0.5%), so none of this means that these individuals become likely to develop schizophrenia. The chances are very small regardless.

Take home points are:
- There is an established link between cannabis use and schizophrenia, and that it almost certainly goes cannabis -> schizophrenia.
- Differences between individuals moderate the relationship, elevated risk occurs where an individual starts using during adolescence, or when they have a family history of psychosis.

So liek look at how smart I am or whatever.

[mattnz]

Your wordings a bit weird, so to clarify you're saying that taking cannabis can cause you to later develop psychosis?? It only accelerates it if you were already going to get it. Cannabis isn't anywhere near potent enough to do the damage necessary to develop psychosis or schizophrenia.

My apologies. Please tell me more.

[Tandoori]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to mattnz again.

[DeiCidal]

We are all a little crazy and most people have smokem de peace pipe at some stage in their life. Good luck with the thread, if it was legal I would grow a few plants for personal viewing and smelling, not smoking.