US Shooting

[Bounty Hunter]

Also, making something against the law doesn't stop it's existence. It creates a thriving black market for the item in said location - guns aren't simply going to vanish in this world, the root cause needs to be addressed.

I know, it'd be nice if the media didn't sensationalise things, but they do. And because they're big and powerful there's fuck all we can do about that.

I know making things illegal creates a black market, but it's still harder to acquire things even on a black market, and the simple acquisition of them makes the laws surrounding their acquisition higher, meaning people like this are more likely to be picked up and put into the mental health system.

Which I also agree needs more funding, for sure! BUT you cannot deny that the fact that the ease of acquiring guns in the US contributes to their problems, yes mental health does too, but that's a very broad and elaborate topic which cannot be solved as easy as making guns more difficult to acquire is. Which is very hard too I know, but with all problems you've got to start with the easy things first.

[monpepe]

Only in the US?

You ever heard of the Middle East? You know, that whole other half of the world?

Or does it not count because they don't speak English as a first language?

Of course I have lived there. Didn't see the many mass killings. Were a few terrorist incidents but mostly people fighting each other not killing kids in schools.

[swindle]

Of course I have lived there. Didn't see the many mass killings. Were a few terrorist incidents but mostly people fighting each other not killing kids in schools.

Oh right. How naive of me.

Suicide bombings, civil war and genocide is quite different.

Only in the Middle East.

Oh wait...

[BeNZene]

WTF America + WTF America =

Westboro Baptist Church Members Say They Will Protest In Sandy Hook
http://www.buzzfeed.com/andrewkaczynski/westboro-baptist-church-members-say-they-will-prot

[Speakman]

Very good Charlie Brooker vid from a couple of years ago, still relevant today:

[Aloysius]

Try making a point swindle? Rather than leaving us to infer what your complaint of monpepe is and what your own point is.
Perhaps I am just too imaginative when reading between the lines...

[monpepe]

Oh right. How naive of me.

Suicide bombings, civil war and genocide is quite different.

Only in the Middle East.

Oh wait...

Of course. However, they are not democratic western states like ours and violence in many parts there is common.

You are comparing apples with oranges.

[swindle]

they are not democratic western states like ours and violence in many parts there is common.

What is that to do with anything man? You say that like its fucking ok.

You say, "Only in the US". I say "Since when is there only mass killings in the US?"

Their age? So what man, people are people no matter how old they are.

Look man, this "Only in the US" shit has got to stop. Not having a go. Just since when the fuck did people adopt this and even start saying it like it even means anything.

[swindle]

Yeah man, totally. "You can have a gun if you let us decide whether we kill you or not". I can see absolutely no other solution.

Oh fuck I can't believe I missed this post!

Smashing. Can't stop laughing.

[monpepe]

What is that to do with anything man? You say that like its $#@!ing ok.

You say, "Only in the US". I say "Since when is there only mass killings in the US?"

Their age? So what man, people are people no matter how old they are.

Look man, this "Only in the US" $#@! has got to stop. Not having a go. Just since when the $#@! did people adopt this and even start saying it like it even means anything.

People can say what they want. Violence is not ok but in its part of the world it has been common place forever. Where we live, in a western democratic society, it is not that common (well mass shootings).

You just have too much sand in your vagina. Chill out.

[smegmacheese]

The Piers Morgan rant on CNN was great, watched that on tv.

That Chinese example has been used in the media as an example of why stricter gun control laws are needed.  Strange to see it being used to the contra here, I agree that the poster seems to have missed th point entirely.

I was watching a Texan government official congressman, governor or something on CNN.  His comment was if the teacher had a gun she could have shot the killer.  I was like wtf you progun lobbyist idiot.  Always comes back to this same bullshit cycle.  Mourn, anger, finger point, advance political agenda, nothing happens.

As a parent watching the grieving, seeing the names, and listening to the epitaphs cuts me up.  At the same time I have already discussed this at length with my children and students, listening, retelling and answering questions they may have(not so much my youngest).

I like the stat, which like all stats can be misleading from Australia.  After stricter gun control laws were introduced in Aus after the Port Arthur massacre, the gun related death rate has fallen by a consistent 96%.  Specifically targeting pistols I think...someone else can check that one out for certainty.

[Apostrophe Spacemonkey]

I was watching a Texan government official congressman, governor or something on CNN.  His comment was if the teacher had a gun she could have shot the killer.  I was like wtf you progun lobbyist idiot.  Always comes back to this same bullshit cycle.  Mourn, anger, finger point, advance political agenda, nothing happens.

And maybe if all the kids has guns as well, they could defend themselves. Ha, ridiculous.

Guns are definitely a big part of the issue. America is far too relaxed with there gun control.



I think countries like New Zealand and Australia have a better middle ground, people can still have guns for hunting etc, but there a licencing requirements and strict controls put in place.

[winter]

That Chinese example has been used in the media as an example of why stricter gun control laws are needed.  Strange to see it being used to the contra here, I agree that the poster seems to have missed th point entirely.

Again, I was stating that not only does gun control need to be looked into but also Mental health services. These school shooters and mass murderers nearly all share similar serious mental health issues.. why do we wait for them to 'erupt'?

I'm not that retarded or ignorant to think that gun control isn't the major cause/problem in the states - I just see a very similar underlying cause with nearly each and every mass-murderer in the last decade — all suffered from serious mental health conditions.

[Apostrophe Spacemonkey]

But it's very hard to find out these people with serious mental health issues. In many cases they live alone, have little contact with other people. They may not have any contact with thier family at all.

If we find them we can help them, but I think there will always be people who stay hidden away until they 'erupt'.

But I agree with you about more support for Mental health services.

[Bounty Hunter]

Again, I was stating that not only does gun control need to be looked into but also Mental health services. These school shooters and mass murderers nearly all share similar serious mental health issues.. why do we wait for them to 'erupt'?

I'm not that retarded or ignorant to think that gun control isn't the major cause/problem in the states - I just see a very similar underlying cause with nearly each and every mass-murderer in the last decade — all suffered from serious mental health conditions.

Lol erupt, you dont know much about mental health huh?

[Apostrophe Spacemonkey]

Lol erupt, you dont know much about mental health huh?

I would say 'erupt' would be an accurate term for someone who goes on a shooting rampage.

[winter]

Lol erupt, you dont know much about mental health huh?

are you just picking on everything I say now? don't you have a sarlac pit to clean or something? edit - this is sarcastic btw, no hate here <3

I used the word 'erupt' because most if not all of these individuals were relatively normal prior to going on these rampages.. is that not a fair term to use? :S

[Bounty Hunter]

I used the word 'erupt' because most if not all of these individuals were relatively normal prior to going on these rampages.. is that not a fair term to use? :S

No no, I'm not worried about the actual word sorry, you're right, erupt is fitting.

What I mean is that, as you stated, these people are perfectly normal, you can't tell them apart from any one else, even psychologists can't, heck most people show signs of depression, anxiety disorder, schizophrenia etc look at gamers! My girlfriend works in mental health, she told me one evening that her flatmates show signs of all the things she's paid to help treat (I dunno if treat is the right word) It doesn't make them mentally unstable, but you honestly don't know.

So yes mental health (health in general) needs more funding, but it's not as simple as "oh that person is clearly going to shoot up a school, we should arrest them before they do that" if that was the case you'd have half of society including most police officers, lawyers and judges locked away.

Even those at high risk will find a way to hurt themselves or others, best thing to do is to take away their ability to do so, clip nails short, remove sharp objects, in extreme cases confine them, in this case the whole of america needs to have it's guns takes away.

That's why I say take the guns away first, then focus on the mental health.

Also to say "oh yeah lets treat the people rather than take away the guns" is very broad, how exactly are you going to treat the people? I know one of the most modern successful methods is regular visits at the persons house, are you going to send a psychologist into the house of a mentally unstable person who can buy a gun online? to be honest, good luck finding any.

You've then got to consider the other methods and even how you might reach out to these people, most of which think they're perfectly sane.

Take the guns, then focus on the mental health system.

Why are we even debating this? it's america, hardly relevant considering NZ has a pretty good track record of shootings (I can think of only 2 or 3? and they were relatively speaking, minor)

[BeNZene]

Why are we even debating this? it's america, hardly relevant considering NZ has a pretty good track record of shootings (I can think of only 2 or 3? and they were relatively speaking, minor)

Post the Aramoana killings 1990, I think we've had three mass murders with guns:
 
Schlaepfer killings in 1992 (6 + offender, with shotgun)
Bain killings in 1994 (5 with .22)
the Raurimu killings in 1997 (5 with shotgun),

Schlepfer and Stephen Anderson were definitely mental health issues.  Bain, well, that needs a whole other thread.  All of them more than 15 years ago.

[smegmacheese]

Agree with what people have been saying re mental health...needs stringent screening.  Piers had another eruption (hah!) on CNN.  Proeveryonehazzagun guy was talking crap.  Piers, kaboom.....gun lobbyist guy went quiet for a while, spoke up again, Kaboom.   Lobbyist then admitted he was on medication for his mental health, this medication also suppressed his empathy, he thanked Piers for pointing out to him why the situation in the US was wrong.


Nice work with mental health checks of gun owning lobbyist  on TV there ;p.  Also agree about impracticality of regular stringent screening of existing gun owners.  Report to the police station for psych evaluation on a yearly..2 yearly basis?  Undergo similar process as when first acquiring firearms license?  As a  NZ gun owner I would not object to either of these conditions.  I view firearms as a privilege, not a right guaranteed by an outdated constitution in a country like the US.

[Cowwie]

It sounds like his own mother a "survivalist” had issues as well.

[mattnz]

Mental health screening can only work if there are reliable, measurable, quantifiable signs that someone is at an elevated risk for harming others with a gun.

Given the incredibly small proportion of people with mental illness who actually go coco-crazy with a gun, and the fact that most of them are not assessable because they're dead, that's a pretty tough ask.

Besides, even if they are suffering from some sort of mental disorder, they're not generally idiots. They're not going to go into a psych evaluation and say "God wants me to kill everyone at my school" or whatever.

A more concerning trend in my opinion is this fixation on the perpetrator. The victims are forgotten, and the shooter immortalised. Does anyone remember even a single victims name from the Aurora shootings? It must seem like a pretty easy way to go down in history for people with the requisite disregard for themselves and others.

[Bounty Hunter]

The joker who plugged (plugs on my mind from another thread) lennon wanted notoriety, and he got it

[Tiwaking!]

Yeah man, totally. "You can have a gun if you let us decide whether we kill you or not". I can see absolutely no other solution.

http://gawker.com/5970539/columbine-had-an-armed-security-guard-on-duty-and-the-nra-is-dumb?utm_source=io9.com&utm_medium=recirculation&utm_campaign=recirculation

Columbine Had an Armed Security Guard on Duty and the NRA Is Dumb

Disregarding the fact that armed guards are people themselves, and thus fallible and susceptible to the kinds of brain disorders that might cause someone to shoot up a school of children, here's a fun fact: Columbine High School, the site of one of the most infamous school shootings in American history, employed an armed guard, Neil Gardner, at the time of the slaughter. And how did that work out? CNN has the report:

Gardner, seeing [Eric] Harris working with his gun, leaned over the top of the car and fired four shots. He was 60 yards from the gunman. Harris spun hard to the right and Gardner momentarily thought he had hit him. Seconds later, Harris began shooting again at the deputy.

After the exchange of gunfire, Harris ran back into the building. Gardner was able to get on the police radio and called for assistance from other Sheriff's units. "Shots in the building. I need someone in the south lot with me."

It was 11:26 a.m. Only five minutes had passed since Jefferson County Sheriff's dispatch center had announced a bomb explosion and subsequent fire on South Wadsworth Boulevard.

Wouldn't you know it: it turns out crazed school shooters have no qualms about shooting at armed guards, who, it also turns out, aren't necessarily effective at stopping gun-crazy madmen. After shooting at the guard, Harris and his partner, Dylan Klebold, stormed the school and were able to kill 13 people. After that, they killed themselves, effectively disproving the notion that "the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is to have a good guy with a gun." Columbine had a good guy with a gun, and the bad guys with the guns killed a bunch of kids and then stopped themselves.

[Emrico1]

What are we going to do about guns? More guns!