War on terror

[Pyromanik]

y, umad?

[winter]

y, umad?

You wish, sweetheart.

[Pyromanik]

oh you.

[Apostrophe Spacemonkey]

Get a room.

[winter]

Again all pro war comments are conveniently clumping all muslims into the extremist bad guy bucket.

Islam is not inherently incompatible with modern life.

To say so is to also say that christianity is, because you're taking the testiment as law to the letter.

Islam isn't entirely incompatible, no. However a large portion of it's ideologies DO require real and immediate reformation.. FGM, Death for Apostasy, Women's rights etc etc just to name a few.

I've also not said that all other religions are flawless, Islam was raised purely because of the OP.

For the record, I'm against all forms of theocracy.

[Lias]

Again all pro war comments are conveniently clumping all muslims into the extremist bad guy bucket.

Islam is not inherently incompatible with modern life.

To say so is to also say that christianity is, because you're taking the testiment as law to the letter.

I would argue all religion is incompatible with modern life, and that's why its rapidly dying out in the western world. As our understanding of science improves, and our educational systems improve, fewer and fewer people feel the need to believe in fairy tales.

[The Demon Lord]

Again all pro war comments are conveniently clumping all muslims into the extremist bad guy bucket.

So I haven't posted in here, mainly because others have been voicing my sentiments - but I will talk on this point:

When Lee Rigby was murdered in the UK (and I was on holiday in the UK at the time) The entire nation rallied in condemnation - however one party was not as vocal as they should be in condemning the Murder - which was the Muslim community.

Those that should have been loudest were soft spoken - and this it the real core of the issue - they were soft spoken because:

1: they on some level agreed with the murder or at least had a level of respect for the killers, believing them to be righteous.
2: They were afraid to speak out for fear of reprisal/retaliation of their fellow muslim (like Al-Shabaab)

These are also the same reasons why perfectly good young men and women become extremists - Islam is a culture of of fear or reprisal and at best doesn't speak out against terrorism and at worse actively promotes it.

Typically while they are all enjoying the perks and comforts of modern western living.

IMHO if they wish to act like dark age savages, then we should treat them as such

[Tiwaking!]

Islam is in need of serious reformation to bring it up to par with secular society

Christianity had a reformation. It was catastrophic.
Islam cannot be reformed.

Any questions?

Why not? Seems like a very head in the sand comment.

Not a head in the sand comment. Depending on how you count (if you include the Thirty Years War vs not including the Thirty Years War) the death toll for the Protestant Reformation is either 50,000 (England Only) or 1 - 3 million.

If we were to ignore the fact that the two major branches of Islam can (and probably would) wipe each other off the face of the earth and just use the low end of the death toll, then the number of people who would die during an Islamic Reformation would be about:

Number of Muslims x Death Toll
1600000000 * 0.0125 = 20000000
This is about 2/3rds the population of the country of Iraq

So you're saying if some of the more dark age, violent, sexist and horribly disgusting ideologies of Islam were to be reformed there would be a massive murderous protest??

Religions of peace eh..

The death toll for the Reformation was huge. The fallout is still felt today, what with the Catholics declaring everyone else as Heretics. Everyone gets along today because of the number of sacrifices made e.g 1/3rd of Germany was killed.

If we were to have the Christian Reformation today, there would be no way it could take place. Too many people would die. No one would consider such barbaric acts as necessary.

If there were an Islamic Reformation it would be completely different from the Christian Reformation because both sides arent fighting for their own survival, they're fighting to completely eliminate the other.

[winter]

Islam is in need of serious reformation to bring it up to par with secular society

Christianity had a reformation. It was catastrophic.
Islam cannot be reformed.

Any questions?

Why not? Seems like a very head in the sand comment.

Not a head in the sand comment. Depending on how you count (if you include the Thirty Years War vs not including the Thirty Years War) the death toll for the Protestant Reformation is either 50,000 (England Only) or 1 - 3 million.

If we were to ignore the fact that the two major branches of Islam can (and probably would) wipe each other off the face of the earth and just use the low end of the death toll, then the number of people who would die during an Islamic Reformation would be about:

Number of Muslims x Death Toll
1600000000 * 0.0125 = 20000000
This is about 2/3rds the population of the country of Iraq

So you're saying if some of the more dark age, violent, sexist and horribly disgusting ideologies of Islam were to be reformed there would be a massive murderous protest??

Religions of peace eh..

The death toll for the Reformation was huge. The fallout is still felt today, what with the Catholics declaring everyone else as Heretics. Everyone gets along today because of the number of sacrifices made e.g 1/3rd of Germany was killed.

If we were to have the Christian Reformation today, there would be no way it could take place. Too many people would die. No one would consider such barbaric acts as necessary.

If there were an Islamic Reformation it would be completely different from the Christian Reformation because both sides arent fighting for their own survival, they're fighting to completely eliminate the other.

So, is that a yes? if Islam was made to drop say, one thing? Female genital mutilation, there'd be a massive massive protest with countless death? really?! fucking really?

Are we living in a world where people feel that strongly for something so fucking absurd that they'd kill someone wanting to maintain their religious ties at the cost of reformation of even one thing??

I don't believe that's entirely true.. I at least hope not - I think you're coming at this from a very negative and strangely statistical angle.

Look at homosexuality and how it has been embraced, in part, by some sects of Christianity - how many Christians revolted against other Christians resulting in widespread death? I'm sure you have a statistic?

[Apostrophe Spacemonkey]

Look at homosexuality and how it has been embraced, in part, by some sects of Christianity - how many Christians revolted against other Christians resulting in widespread death? I'm sure you have a statistic?

Christian groups moving to accepting homosexuality is a good example on how religions can reform in modern times. I don't see any reason why other religions can't do the same in modern times.

I don't understand why Tiwa is going on about stuff that happened in the 1600s, we are not in the 1600s anymore.

I'm sure it will happened eventually.

[Tiwaking!]

So, is that a yes? if Islam was made to drop say, one thing? Female genital mutilation, there'd be a massive massive protest with countless death? really?! fucking really?

Not just Islam. Haredi Jews hate on normal Jews en masse. Any attempt to change Haredi Jews lead to violent protests.

When Christians break off and do their own thing, the only thing that usually happens is condemnation but not violence. There is a Church (just a single building) not far from where I live that is "Presbyterian" but turned Happy Clap. The Presbyterian council legally forced them to remove all references to the Presbyterian name from sign posts, literature, and advertisements.

Back in the day, they would have burnt it to the ground.

Are we living in a world where people feel that strongly for something so fucking absurd that they'd kill someone wanting to maintain their religious ties at the cost of reformation of even one thing??

I don't believe that's entirely true.. I at least hope not - I think you're coming at this from a very negative and strangely statistical angle.

I dont care what you believe. It is time for you to wake up


Armenian & Greek Orthodox Monks Fight Jerusalem
This is a mild fight. There are fights all over the world based entirely on religion. Jerusalem is famous for them. Because it is the focal point for so many religions.

Orthodox and Catholics fight all the time. The difference between the two is: One has a Pope and one doesnt.
The real difference between the two is that one believes in Transubstantiation and the other doesnt. Transubstantiation is the idea that the eucharist (the bread and wine that is consumed during holy communion) becomes the actual body and blood of Jesus Christ.

And the real, REAL difference between the two is: One believes the bread should be leavened and the other believes the bread should be unleavened.

Did you ever see Monty Python's "Life of Brian" when he loses his shoe and everyone trys to figure out what the lost shoe means? Imagine that, but replace disagreement with AK47's.

Look at homosexuality and how it has been embraced, in part, by some sects of Christianity - how many Christians revolted against other Christians resulting in widespread death? I'm sure you have a statistic?

You're missing the point.

Christianity has already had its Reformation. It cost a lot of lives, but it was probably worth it. The Christian Reformation gave people freedom, religions freedom, to believe whatever they want. Thats why we can have homo's, married priests, and female Bishops.

Islam cant have a Reformation because it requires an Islamic Authority. Christianity had a Pope. Islam doesnt. Islam just has an unchangeable, infallible book. Two books actually (Koran and Hadith). The main half of Islam (Sunni) believes in pretty much what was originally taught. The other major group (Shia) are messianic and believe that the last imam was spirited away and will return one day.


Personally I think you should hug your kid for having a dad who is going to make the right decisions for them.

edit:

I don't understand why Tiwa is going on about stuff that happened in the 1600s, we are not in the 1600s anymore.

I'm sure it will happened eventually.

As long as we have a Pope, we are still in the 1600's

[Xsannz]

Loving this debate, i myself see the OP's point of view but i can see the other arguments, not fence sitting but i can see some valid points and why this causes so much conflict.

summary: religions fuck up everything.. 

[Bounty Hunter]

uuuhhh Super lame post here with no backing up or citation, it's before work, I'm tired and haven't had a coffee yet. BUT:

Someone, somewhere on the internet said that for some reason Christianity was about 1000 years ahead of Islam in terms of modernisation. They cited a fairly good explanation too. But I can't remember.

winter, I think if Islam reformed female genital mutilation there would fully legit be civil war, in fact I bet the reason it hasn't is because someone has suggested it and been killed for suggesting it. I genuinely think Islam is that far behind, yes in theory it can reform and modernise, but in practise I don't think it can today.

Also OP's letter was a POS and should be in the HOS.

[Xsannz]

POS it may be but it still raises all the points we are discussing in this thread,

on the topic of gentital mutilation, the jewish force the same thing, except that it doesn't scar and remove the erogenous pleasure zones they way the islamists do, but it still brings me back to the point religion is the bane of the modern world.

[The Demon Lord]

The death toll for the Reformation was huge. The fallout is still felt today, what with the Catholics declaring everyone else as Heretics. Everyone gets along today because of the number of sacrifices made e.g 1/3rd of Germany was killed.

If we were to have the Christian Reformation today, there would be no way it could take place. Too many people would die. No one would consider such barbaric acts as necessary.

If there were an Islamic Reformation it would be completely different from the Christian Reformation because both sides arent fighting for their own survival, they're fighting to completely eliminate the other.

If Islam thinking about making a change results in a mass Civil war and death - how is this not re-confirming that it is a violent cult that needs to be either eradicated or severely chastised?

[Tandoori]

"For no reason suddenly you are told to 'Go home', 'you are horrible, you're a killer or a murderer or to get our of here' or to 'be careful because we are going to take care of you.'"

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/260967/muslims-facing-discrimination-in-nz

[The Demon Lord]

Maybe they should get off their arses and do something about the Radical clerics teaching in their mosques or maybe they should be much more vocal and public with their condemnation IS/ISIS/Islamic Terrorism.

Its easy to play the victim card, but not one wants to admit that while they sit idly by are complicit in raising the next generation of Terrorists

[Tandoori]

Maybe they should get off their arses and do something about the Radical clerics teaching in their mosques or maybe they should be much more vocal and public with their condemnation IS/ISIS/Islamic Terrorism.

Its easy to play the victim card, but not one wants to admit that while they sit idly by are complicit in raising the next generation of Terrorists

So I think that your comments are testament to the ignorance that Dame Susan comments on in that article.
Maybe that's presumptuous of me. But I'm guessing you've had little to no interaction with the Muslim community nor have attended mosque? What qualification do you have to make generalisations about 89,000 people, apart from the Government saying they've got ~80 assorted persons on watchlists (albeit without stating whether that 80 are Muslims or not)?

In any case...

The vast and overwhelming majority of Muslims are not extremists and seem to be vocal in opposing that sort of behaviour (as referenced in the article). Your accusations that these people 'sit idly by' is germane to the sort of prejudice and vile actions that in my estimation push vulnerable people towards extremist views and actions. It's just like the New Brunswick housewife who advocates unethical treatment towards Muslim people. That same type of treatment is the genesis of the problem. Other than making statements which condemn extremism (which they have done) what is fairly expected of these people? Should I reasonably expect you to make statements condemning gamers who do bad stuff just because you share some common behaviour? And isn't part of the problem that their statements of condemnation don't get picked up on by the media because it's not conducive to selling papers or adspace? I'm not saying that papers actively choose not to publish these things, it's just that there's no particular demand to see that type of content.

Muslims who face discrimination spurred by the actions of extremists ARE victims. They're not 'playing the victim card'. That logic would be like saying I can treat you like shit on the basis that you bear some resemblance to other 'bad guys' and then accuse you of playing the victim card when you protest!

e.g.
Punk rock fans need to hurry up and condemn extremists due to the fact that 100% of New Zealand suicide bombing are carried out by punk rock fans! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Roberts_%28anarchist%29


I recognise these exact same dynamics playing out with respect to Maori issues in the media as well.

A useful resource might be to peruse the following: http://trc.org.nz/theme-7-ignorance-and-insensitivity
And see if you can't identify some similar trends in Muslim coverage.

[Tiwaking!]

Someone, somewhere on the internet said that for some reason Christianity was about 1000 years ahead of Islam in terms of modernisation.

This is the weird thing about Christian Apologists

To say that Christianity is "1000 years ahead of Islam" admits that Christianity has had 1000 years of improvement. What it also says, and what Apologists always like to cover up, is that if you went back 1000 years then Christianity is the same as Islam. This is compounded by the fact that Biblical Authority (the book that is infallible and unchangeable) was all the rage back then.

The conclusion is that Christianity is based on a lie. Christianity usurps the idea that mutual respect and cooperation could appear because of humanities innate need to communicate and survive, and replaces it with a psychopathic schizophrenic mythical bearded sky man willing to kill himself and bring himself back to life as the cure all for "all of the sins that the world has done, will do, and always do because they dont believe"

If Islam thinking about making a change results in a mass Civil war and death - how is this not re-confirming that it is a violent cult that needs to be either eradicated or severely chastised?

The difference between a cult and a religion is the number of followers.
Islam cannot be changed
Anyone who attempts to reform Islam will be executed for Apostasy
Eradicating Islam is impossible because Christianity and most religions forbid murder (1000 years of improvement!)
Severely chastising Muslims is impossible because it punishes a religion for being a religion

[mattnz]

That's some interesting discussion (although I didn't read the OP's quoted letter as it seemed pretty racist).

I agree that some of the tenets of Islam are problematic, converting by sword being the main one (everything else can probably be sorted out over time).

But (to take an example closer to home), we can see it's perfectly possible to be a fundamentalist Christian tea-bagger and still not turn the other cheek, or support universal healthcare (things that Jesus was a fan of). Moreover, religiosity in the Western world has been going down on average for some time.

So it is possible for people to become less religious, or at least act less religious. What we need to do is reduce the average religiosity of the Middle East. Please try and think of this on a population level, rather than an individual level. Some people can get more Islamic, as long as more become less Islamic.

I think that what is often ignored is the environment in which Islam exists. You have a largely uneducated populace with very little social mobility (largely thanks to the West pumping ridiculous amounts of money into the ruling class who fritter it away in non-functional exorbitant displays of wealth; see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burj_Khalifa).

Now if there's one thing that makes people put their faith in religion, it's being ill-educated. So lets educate them, right? I'm not even talking about going in saying "this is why Islam is wrong", just giving them the basic education that we access to, and maybe throwing in there that a secular life is possible. Is that practical? Maybe, it would probably take concerted international pressure over a long period to achieve though, and everyone's a bit too bent over the barrel for that kind of thing

Another factor that we might look at (putting on my psychologist hat) is the effect of fear. If it's not apprent to everyone that it's all but impossible to beat the religion out of someone, here are the theoretical underpinnings.

The effect of fear is predicted by the reasonably well-supported terror management theory (TMT; see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terror_management_theory). Essentially this theory asserts that religion is a worldview meant to alleviate our fear of death, because we go to heaven/get reincarnated/whatever, so we don't actually die. TMT also predicts (and this has been empirically supported) is that the more imminent death is (higher mortality salience, technically), the more religious we get. Now imagine the effect on mortality salience of near constant war on religiosity. Now imagine the effect of the uncertainty about whether an armed drone is hovering beyond sight in the clear blue sky about to reduce you to a gurgling mess of entrails.

Not perfect, by any means, but these are some ideas for helping with the whole extremist problem. Unfortunately these solutions would take a while to have an effect, and probably won't have people waving little American flags in one election cycle (much less advance the agenda of the military-industrial complex). Easier to just say "duh doi, let's kill a quarter of the world's population"

[The Demon Lord]

Maybe they should get off their arses and do something about the Radical clerics teaching in their mosques or maybe they should be much more vocal and public with their condemnation IS/ISIS/Islamic Terrorism.

Its easy to play the victim card, but not one wants to admit that while they sit idly by are complicit in raising the next generation of Terrorists

So I think that your comments are testament to the ignorance that Dame Susan comments on in that article.
Maybe that's presumptuous of me. But I'm guessing you've had little to no interaction with the Muslim community nor have attended mosque? What qualification do you have to make generalisations about 89,000 people, apart from the Government saying they've got ~80 assorted persons on watchlists (albeit without stating whether that 80 are Muslims or not)?

It would be very presumptuous of you - I have had a fair amount of interaction with NZ born Muslims, and have attended a Mosque (I will admit I have yet to read the Qur'an cover to cover - but then I haven't read the Bible cover to cover either)

There is a phrase which I think is pertinent - all that is needed for evil to flourish is for good people to do nothing.

I think it should also be made clear that my objections are not solely leveled at Islam - Christianity is just as guilty, the only difference is, While the silence from the moderate side of Christianity is deafening - When was the last time Destiny church Beheaded someone?

In any case...

The vast and overwhelming majority of Muslims are not extremists and seem to be vocal in opposing that sort of behaviour (as referenced in the article).

When was the last time an extreme cleric was handed over to the Authorities by the Muslim community?
When was the last time the Muslim community reported someone they were concerned about to the police?
When was the last time the perpetrator of an Honour killing or some other Barbaric practice was given up by the community?

Can't remember? Neither can I... and by NOT doing those things - They are complicit and IMO just as guilty.

Your accusations that these people 'sit idly by' is germane to the sort of prejudice and vile actions that in my estimation push vulnerable people towards extremist views and actions. It's just like the New Brunswick housewife who advocates unethical treatment towards Muslim people. That same type of treatment is the genesis of the problem.

No, I think the genesis of the problem is people engaging in barbaric behaviors and practices that might have been acceptable in the 16th century but are certainly not acceptable now

Other than making statements which condemn extremism (which they have done) what is fairly expected of these people?

Maybe stop the wall of silence that the guilty hide behind? that would be a start....

Should I reasonably expect you to make statements condemning gamers who do bad stuff just because you share some common behaviour?

If some Gamers were seriously advocating (so not actually doing) the decapitation of innocent people to make a statement - I would be the first to kick in their door and drag their asses to the police station.

And isn't part of the problem that their statements of condemnation don't get picked up on by the media because it's not conducive to selling papers or adspace? I'm not saying that papers actively choose not to publish these things, it's just that there's no particular demand to see that type of content.

Sure, I will concede that there will be media bias - but does that give them the right to say 'Oh well, we made our statement, we are okay, I see that little Ahmed had signed up for a holiday camp in Syria - looks like it will be fun!'

Muslims who face discrimination spurred by the actions of extremists ARE victims. They're not 'playing the victim card'. That logic would be like saying I can treat you like shit on the basis that you bear some resemblance to other 'bad guys' and then accuse you of playing the victim card when you protest!

If I had a choice between having people say a few rude words to me and being publicly decapitated on video - I think I know which I would choose. Again, there is so much more they could be doing to STOP extremism, which they are NOT doing - and by not doing so, they are complicit.

e.g.
Punk rock fans need to hurry up and condemn extremists due to the fact that 100% of New Zealand suicide bombing are carried out by punk rock fans! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Roberts_%28anarchist%29

What do you expect from Punk fans? 

I recognise these exact same dynamics playing out with respect to Maori issues in the media as well.

A useful resource might be to peruse the following: http://trc.org.nz/theme-7-ignorance-and-insensitivity
And see if you can't identify some similar trends in Muslim coverage.

Could Maori also be guilty of not helping themselves? possibly... Especially if you look at the Ethnic makeup of our prison population - I get that crime is higher in low socio-economic groups and in groups that don't have high education, but given the prevelance of Maori centric scholarships/education programs - one has to ask, at what point do we stop and simply say 'if you want help, help yourself'

[The Demon Lord]

If Islam thinking about making a change results in a mass Civil war and death - how is this not re-confirming that it is a violent cult that needs to be either eradicated or severely chastised?

The difference between a cult and a religion is the number of followers.
Islam cannot be changed
Anyone who attempts to reform Islam will be executed for Apostasy
Eradicating Islam is impossible because Christianity and most religions forbid murder (1000 years of improvement!)
Severely chastising Muslims is impossible because it punishes a religion for being a religion

My point exactly - all religons are Cults and deserving of scorn.
Islam CAN be change - just the people who follow it don't WANT it to change - they are happy with their 16th century ideals (and who wouldn't be - men get a pretty sweet deal)
Again - really selling me on the positives of Islam
Who said anything about christianity? I will happily Judge Islam By the same tenants that it judges everything.
No, it punishes it for being barbaric, backwards, Mysoginist, Violent, and dangerous.

[Pyromanik]

Again all pro war comments are conveniently clumping all muslims into the extremist bad guy bucket.

So I haven't posted in here, mainly because others have been voicing my sentiments - but I will talk on this point:

When Lee Rigby was murdered in the UK (and I was on holiday in the UK at the time) The entire nation rallied in condemnation - however one party was not as vocal as they should be in condemning the Murder - which was the Muslim community.

Those that should have been loudest were soft spoken - and this it the real core of the issue - they were soft spoken because:

1: they on some level agreed with the murder or at least had a level of respect for the killers, believing them to be righteous.
2: They were afraid to speak out for fear of reprisal/retaliation of their fellow muslim (like Al-Shabaab)

These are also the same reasons why perfectly good young men and women become extremists - Islam is a culture of of fear or reprisal and at best doesn't speak out against terrorism and at worse actively promotes it.

Typically while they are all enjoying the perks and comforts of modern western living.

IMHO if they wish to act like dark age savages, then we should treat them as such

Or, y'know, 3 and 4.

3. When most of the country wants your blood indiscriminately, probably best not to make yourself an easy target.
4. Or the news media actively ignores said community's voice in order to spin the furor.

Point 3 all the more pertinent if point 4 happens, which in turn turns into a bit of a feedback loop.

[The Demon Lord]

Again all pro war comments are conveniently clumping all muslims into the extremist bad guy bucket.

So I haven't posted in here, mainly because others have been voicing my sentiments - but I will talk on this point:

When Lee Rigby was murdered in the UK (and I was on holiday in the UK at the time) The entire nation rallied in condemnation - however one party was not as vocal as they should be in condemning the Murder - which was the Muslim community.

Those that should have been loudest were soft spoken - and this it the real core of the issue - they were soft spoken because:

1: they on some level agreed with the murder or at least had a level of respect for the killers, believing them to be righteous.
2: They were afraid to speak out for fear of reprisal/retaliation of their fellow muslim (like Al-Shabaab)

These are also the same reasons why perfectly good young men and women become extremists - Islam is a culture of of fear or reprisal and at best doesn't speak out against terrorism and at worse actively promotes it.

Typically while they are all enjoying the perks and comforts of modern western living.

IMHO if they wish to act like dark age savages, then we should treat them as such

Or, y'know, 3 and 4.

3. When most of the country wants your blood indiscriminately, probably best not to make yourself an easy target.
4. Or the news media actively ignores said community's voice in order to spin the furor.

Point 3 all the more pertinent if point 4 happens, which in turn turns into a bit of a feedback loop.

Yeah, Nah.

Sure, I will give you point 4 that some Media is going to pick a side (ie The Sun for example) however some Media will be a little less biased (the BBC)

Not to mention that If there were mass outcry from the Muslim community - we would also have Al Jazeera as they have a dedicated English side.

Then there is Point 3 - If the Islamic community of the UK came out with horror and disgust at the crimes and handed over the numerous radical and extremist clerics to the Police or provided testimony against them/confirming they are inciting terrorism, then Maybe (and I am going out on a limb here) Maybe the rest of the country wouldn't be so eager for Islamic blood (as you claim).

As it stands, the community puts up a wall of silence (like most ethnic minority communities I might add) that protects these individuals.

[Pyromanik]

like most ethnic minority communities I might add

And then you have to ask, why is that? What is causing this exclusion & solidarity?

If you meet 100 people and one is an arsehole, then they're probably just an arsehole.
If you meet 100 people and they're all arseholes, then it is probably you that is an arsehole.

If all people that come to live in your country are solidary and quiet, perhaps you're not as welcoming as you might think.

Meanwhile in the UK, government backed xenophobia is being introduced and the papers are blaming Facebook for Mr. Rigby's most horrific murder.