THe Flag thread.

[Xenolightning]

1: it wasn't a change that anyone wanted (polling before it was announced I think from memory was 70% against changing the flag)

The entire referendum is to determine EXACTLY THIS. What better way to draw a useful conclusion that doing an OFFICIAL "country wide poll".

To say that no-one wanted it before the referendum has actually taken place, is just plain stupid.

[The Demon Lord]

1: it wasn't a change that anyone wanted (polling before it was announced I think from memory was 70% against changing the flag)

The entire referendum is to determine EXACTLY THIS. What better way to draw a useful conclusion that doing an OFFICIAL "country wide poll".

To say that no-one wanted it before the referendum has actually taken place, is just plain stupid.

No, the current referendum is asking us to select our preferred alternative - not whether or not we want change.

Before the Road show, before the Designs, Before ANYTHING - there should have been a referendum about whether NZ wanted to change - if the response was more than 50% no, then we stop - and save a good chunk of that $26 Mill, if more than 50% was yes they would be interested in Change - THEN we proceed with all the circus that the flag debacle has been.

[Xenolightning]

No, the current referendum is asking us to select our preferred alternative - not whether or not we want change.

Before the Road show, before the Designs, Before ANYTHING - there should have been a referendum about whether NZ wanted to change - if the response was more than 50% no, then we stop - and save a good chunk of that $26 Mill, if more than 50% was yes they would be interested in Change - THEN we proceed with all the circus that the flag debacle has been.

There is only ONE referendum. The ultimate goal is to determine whether NZ wants a new flag.

How do you know you don't want a change if you don't know the options for change?

It's the exact same thing as deciding your hole in the ground is the best, without even popping your head up out of the hole to see other holes.

You might think your current hole is pretty good, but other people are quite interested in seeing the other holes in the paddock before choosing a hole they want to sit in.

[Apostrophe Spacemonkey]

1: it wasn't a change that anyone wanted (polling before it was announced I think from memory was 70% against changing the flag)

70% against changing the flag doesn't not mean 70% were against having a referendum.

You assuming that if the No vote wins next march, then the referendum was a waste of money. But that is not the case at all.
A No vote means the current NZ flag will be kept for maybe another hundred years, which is what the supporters of the current flag would want.


The referendum was going to happen anyway, either this government, the next, or the one after that. It was on the agenda of both major political parties.

[The Demon Lord]

No, the current referendum is asking us to select our preferred alternative - not whether or not we want change.

Before the Road show, before the Designs, Before ANYTHING - there should have been a referendum about whether NZ wanted to change - if the response was more than 50% no, then we stop - and save a good chunk of that $26 Mill, if more than 50% was yes they would be interested in Change - THEN we proceed with all the circus that the flag debacle has been.

There is only ONE referendum. The ultimate goal is to determine whether NZ wants a new flag.

How do you know you don't want a change if you don't know the options for change?

It's the exact same thing as deciding your hole in the ground is the best, without even popping your head up out of the hole to see other holes.

You might think your current hole is pretty good, but other people are quite interested in seeing the other holes in the paddock before choosing a hole they want to sit in.

To me - that is Arse-about-face.

Decide if you want to change first, then start making alternatives then determine if those alternatives are good enough to justify change.

[Apostrophe Spacemonkey]

Before the Road show, before the Designs, Before ANYTHING - there should have been a referendum about whether NZ wanted to change - if the response was more than 50% no, then we stop - and save a good chunk of that $26 Mill, if more than 50% was yes they would be interested in Change - THEN we proceed with all the circus that the flag debacle has been.

That turns it from a question about changing the flag into a question about spending money, where peoples answers will depend on their frugality.

For example, a lot of people would answer these two questions differently;

Should we have a referendum to change the flag?
The total cost of this will be $20

or

Should we have a referendum to change the flag?
The total cost of this will be $20 billion.

[Xenolightning]

To me - that is Arse-about-face.

Decide if you want to change first, then start making alternatives then determine if those alternatives are good enough to justify change.

People are change adverse. If you do a survey asking for change, most people will vote against change.

That's effectively what you are proposing.

1) Let's Change!
2) No!
3) Ok!
4) Repeat from Step 1

[The Demon Lord]

Before the Road show, before the Designs, Before ANYTHING - there should have been a referendum about whether NZ wanted to change - if the response was more than 50% no, then we stop - and save a good chunk of that $26 Mill, if more than 50% was yes they would be interested in Change - THEN we proceed with all the circus that the flag debacle has been.

That turns it from a question about changing the flag into a question about spending money, where peoples answers will depend on their frugality.

For example, a lot of people would answer these two questions differently;

Should we have a referendum to change the flag?
The total cost of this will be $20

or

Should we have a referendum to change the flag?
The total cost of this will be $20 billion.

Absolutely - Cost/benefit analysis. There are sweet FA benefits from changing the flag (you are still going to be that island off the coast of Australia that is good at Rugby) and so the cost for me to consider it a worthwhile endeavor would have to be equally low.

Assume we change the flag, and spend $26 mil + the actual cost of new Flags/insignia/stuff - what is the overall benefit to NZ as a whole and to me as a Tax Payer? I don't see a Benefit.

I do however see other things that have been put on the backburner or cancelled which I see greater benefit than this fascicle exercise.

[The Demon Lord]

To me - that is Arse-about-face.

Decide if you want to change first, then start making alternatives then determine if those alternatives are good enough to justify change.

People are change adverse. If you do a survey asking for change, most people will vote against change.

That's effectively what you are proposing.

1) Let's Change!
2) No!
3) Ok!
4) Repeat from Step 1

Then so be it - Democracy in action.

Relephant link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0ZZJXw4MTA

[Apostrophe Spacemonkey]

The Blue / Black Fern design won.

Followed closely by the Blue / Red Fern design.


Red Peak was a distant third.

[Tiwaking!]

The Blue / Black Fern design won.

Followed closely by the Blue / Red Fern design.


Red Peak was a distant third.

Didnt vote.

Hate everyone who voted.
http://www.3news.co.nz/nznews/flag-result-causing-debate-2015121208#axzz3u34pdGGv

Deputy Prime Minister Bill English says the result shows strong public interest in the future of the nation's flag.
It was Prime Minister John Key's decision to put a flag change in front of voters and let them decide.

He played you.
He played all of you like a puppet.

[doberman-08]

The Blue / Black Fern design won.

Followed closely by the Blue / Red Fern design.


Red Peak was a distant third.

Didnt vote.

Hate everyone who voted.
http://www.3news.co.nz/nznews/flag-result-causing-debate-2015121208#axzz3u34pdGGv

Deputy Prime Minister Bill English says the result shows strong public interest in the future of the nation's flag.
It was Prime Minister John Key's decision to put a flag change in front of voters and let them decide.

He played you.
He played all of you like a puppet.

It kind of says it all, this,  from ODT on Saturday "The vote included what appeared to be a significant protest element, with 9.7% of votes informal.

The Electoral Commission said last night 1,527,042 votes were received, including 148,022 informal votes (9.7%) and 2476 invalid votes (0.16%).

The turnout was 48.16% of registered voters". If the Finance Minster thinks this was strong public interest he shouldn't be handling my money for much longer.

[Apostrophe Spacemonkey]

It kind of says it all, this,  from ODT on Saturday "The vote included what appeared to be a significant protest element, with 9.7% of votes informal.

The Electoral Commission said last night 1,527,042 votes were received, including 148,022 informal votes (9.7%) and 2476 invalid votes (0.16%).

The turnout was 48.16% of registered voters". If the Finance Minster thinks this was strong public interest he shouldn't be handling my money for much longer.

Well, I look at those same numbers and come to the opposite conclusions.

9.7% of votes informal, but I not sure what they are protesting against. They didn't like any of the flags? Well too bad. Not everyone can have the flag they want, that is why we have to vote for it.

Fortunately, the democratic process doesn't cater to the minority, but for the majority.

48.16% of registered voters is quite good, on par with other postal votes, and higher then many local government elections.

[doberman-08]

It kind of says it all, this,  from ODT on Saturday "The vote included what appeared to be a significant protest element, with 9.7% of votes informal.

The Electoral Commission said last night 1,527,042 votes were received, including 148,022 informal votes (9.7%) and 2476 invalid votes (0.16%).

The turnout was 48.16% of registered voters". If the Finance Minster thinks this was strong public interest he shouldn't be handling my money for much longer.

Well, I look at those same numbers and come to the opposite conclusions.

9.7% of votes informal, but I not sure what they are protesting against. They didn't like any of the flags? Well too bad. Not everyone can have the flag they want, that is why we have to vote for it.

Fortunately, the democratic process doesn't cater to the minority, but for the majority.

48.16% of registered voters is quite good, on par with other postal votes, and higher then many local government elections.

9.7% is very high for a protest vote according to Pol Studies lecturer Dr Bryce Edwards from Otago Uni, he stated that 1% was normal. The protest vote may well be more about changing the flag and not the options if i have read the poll results right. NZ Herald on 24 November reported that 65% of those polled did not want the change. If that is the case then following on the polls the better question being asked in the referendum should have been about whether we wanted a change at all. For my money it means only 38.4% actually voted for any flag option/change, so still not seeing strong public interest.

[Apostrophe Spacemonkey]

It's been stated many times before, asking the question "do we want to the change flag?" without first presenting the alternative option, is a stupid idea.

Would you agree to have your house painted a different colour, without knowing what colour?

Choosing the alternative flag first is logically the best way of doing it.

[doberman-08]

It's been stated many times before, asking the question "do we want to the change flag?" without first presenting the alternative option, is a stupid idea.

Would you agree to have your house painted a different colour, without knowing what colour?

Choosing the alternative flag first is logically the best way of doing it.

Apparently those that did the polling don't agree with the sentiment that it is stupid and considering they got a good response to that question says it all. Why would you want to change your house colour, the old adage applies if it isn't broken don't fix it The only reasons to paint the house a different colour would be: you are doing maintenance; trying to improve it for sales purposes; or, you are genuinely sick of the old colour. Either way you still need to ask the question.

[Xenolightning]

*sigh*

How can you even paint your house without paint existing.

[doberman-08]

*sigh*

How can you even paint your house without paint existing.

Never did like that debate in Metaphysics

[Xenolightning]

So what we've leaned here today is that the Flag Referendum is a quantum phenomenon, and we now have a dead cat.

At least Gareth Morgan will be happy.

[mycoolcar]

we now have a dead cat.

Xeno the pussy slayer.

[Xenolightning]

Xeno the pussy slayer.

I'm sorry, who are you again?

[mycoolcar]

Just a lurker who has a little crush on you.

[Tiwaking!]

Good use of NZD$26,000,000 guys.

[Gutty]

you know that this vote does not get counted and it will go towards the new flag count instead, right?

[Tiwaking!]

you know that this vote does not get counted and it will go towards the new flag count instead, right?

You know votes dont get counted until they arrive at the voting office and this hasnt been delivered yet, right?